mattp Posted February 21, 2008 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 Peter: do you like Cuban cigars? How about Russian vodka? State an opinion on something -- anything -- so we can have a discussion. How 'bout this: Guantanamo: keep it or close it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 There are probably more political prisoners in Gitmo which is run by even more evil motherfuckers. Are you saying we've executed without trial between 15,000 and 25,000 political prisoners? Get a grip, Toad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Here's to the people of Cuba: who kicked out some evil bad M*fuckers that were sucking them dry like parasites and got a whole different group of evil bad M*fuckers that sucked them dry like different parasites. you seem to know enough of the cuban people to speak for them? wow. same to all you armchair qb's who are so intimately knowledgeable about another country. Is someone channeling the "If you aren't a Muslim..." argument? One can formulate an opinion on a particular regime without presuming to speak for the inhabitants living under the regime, no? Any ideas why it may be more difficult to discern the true sentiments of Cubans on this topic than it would be for say, the Dutch? the last question of your post would be the germane question, and the one that seems to be without an answer (except for FW's fair and objective take). there is of course opposition to the castro regime in cuba, fairly obvious, but there is also widespread support within cuba, which is way less obvious to consumers of exclusively domestic US news. now, do i believe in a single party dictatorship? no. do i think castro was a really bad guy? no. contradiction? no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yo Fairweather: if you want to talk about killing innocent victims, lets not forget about the fact that our war in Iraq has killed over 500,000 Iraqis. Torture? Lets acknowledge what we’ve been doing in Guantanamo and Abu Graib and in our proxy prisons hidden away elsewhere around the world. How many people has Castro jailed without trial for the last 5 years? How many deaths is he responsible for? The point you made certainly has some merit: Castro’s government has not respected human rights and they have almost certainly killed and tortured thousands or tens of thousands. But if you are talking about the last fifty years, we are responsible for far greater amounts of death and torture. Maybe the ends justify the means, but I'm just saying... The fact that our own actions around the world have not always shown respect for human life certainly doesn’t excuse anybody connected with Fidel Castro - but what do YOU think we should do about that now? what should our next president seek to do with respect relations with the next leader of Cuba? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yo Fairweather: if you want to talk about killing innocent victims, lets not forget about the fact that our war in Iraq has killed over 500,000 Iraqis. bullshit! that figure is complete nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yo Fairweather: if you want to talk about killing innocent victims, lets not forget about the fact that our war in Iraq has killed over 500,000 Iraqis. bullshit! that figure is complete nonsense. i'm sure we could agree on 100,000? how about the un iraq sanctions: 500,000 to 1,000,000? can we agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 OK KK: what do you think is the "right" count? a fair and balanced study No matter how you look at it, we're responsible for more deaths than Castro could ever even imagine and the only defense you can raise is that "the ends justified the means." Or maybe "we didn't mean it." I don't think that cuts it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Yo Fairweather: if you want to talk about killing innocent victims, lets not forget about the fact that our war in Iraq has killed over 500,000 Iraqis. bullshit! that figure is complete nonsense. i'm sure we could agree on 100,000? how about the un iraq sanctions: 500,000 to 1,000,000? can we agree? the last time this topic came up, the hysterical left were throwing about the figure 600,000 and it didn't take long to find information that put a more realistic estimate at 10% of that. And by 60,000 we mean "violent deaths", not all of which are directly attributable to US military personnel personally firing the trigger. As for the UN sanctions, Saddam had a lot to do with those deaths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 For the purposes of THIS discussion - what should we say about how many people Castro has killed in the last 50 years - let's just use your number. 60,000 then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 For the purposes of THIS discussion - what should we say about how many people Castro has killed in the last 50 years, let's just use your number. 60,000 then. Castro killed his own people. You'd have a point if Bush killed 60,000 members of his opposition, or confiscated their property and imprisoned them, or... or... Sorry, but I reject you ridiculous moral equivalency argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Admittedly, Fairweather was claiming that Castro had all those people EXECUTED and they were not killed as "collateral damage." That's fine. But how many have been EXECUTED by our proxy's over the last 50 years? I don't think we'll ever know but the point is that we can't claim we don't do/order/support the same thing. I remember one past cc.com discussion where Fairweather argued that it was OK for Pinochet to have killed all those Chileans after we helped install him because the communists were going to kill even more people. The ends justify the means, I guess. I think rather than argue whether we are better than Cuba, it might be better to talk about the present: what should we do now? If you want to talk about broader issues, I think a fair point could be made that George Bush is a much greater threat to world peace than Fidel Castro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Admittedly, Fairweather was claiming that Castro has all those people EXECUTED and there were not killed as "collateral damage." That's fine. But how many have been EXECUTED by our proxy's over the last 50 years? I don't think we'll ever know but the point is that we can't claim we don't do/order/support the same thing. And the real question is: what should we do now? Honestly, I haven't studied Castro's regime and it's crimes. On a relative scale it may in fact be small bananas compared to China, Russia, and N. Korea. But all communist regimes are alike in their tendency to turn inwards and imprison, execute, starve, and crush all opposition, and oppress their own people. What should we do now? Hopefully normalize relations more. Modern day Cuba is no worse than Vietnam, are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Here's to the people of Cuba: who kicked out some evil bad M*fuckers that were sucking them dry like parasites and got a whole different group of evil bad M*fuckers that sucked them dry like different parasites. you seem to know enough of the cuban people to speak for them? wow. same to all you armchair qb's who are so intimately knowledgeable about another country. Is someone channeling the "If you aren't a Muslim..." argument? One can formulate an opinion on a particular regime without presuming to speak for the inhabitants living under the regime, no? Any ideas why it may be more difficult to discern the true sentiments of Cubans on this topic than it would be for say, the Dutch? the last question of your post would be the germane question, and the one that seems to be without an answer (except for FW's fair and objective take). there is of course opposition to the castro regime in cuba, fairly obvious, but there is also widespread support within cuba, which is way less obvious to consumers of exclusively domestic US news. now, do i believe in a single party dictatorship? no. do i think castro was a really bad guy? no. contradiction? no. I suspect that there's widespread support for the "Dear Leader" in North Korea at the moment as well. The true test of how deep and sincere that support is will only come when the citizens have free access to information, and can voice their opinions without fear of repression. Until Cuba satisfies those conditions, your estimates of the true level of support for the regime in Cuba aren't much more reliable than estimates of popular hostility towards it, are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Admittedly, Fairweather was claiming that Castro had all those people EXECUTED and they were not killed as "collateral damage." That's fine. But how many have been EXECUTED by our proxy's over the last 50 years? I don't think we'll ever know but the point is that we can't claim we don't do/order/support the same thing. I remember one past cc.com discussion where Fairweather argued that it was OK for Pinochet to have killed all those Chileans after we helped install him because the communists were going to kill even more people. The ends justify the means, I guess. I think rather than argue whether we are better than Cuba, it might be better to talk about the present: what should we do now? If you want to talk about broader issues, I think a fair point could be made that George Bush is a much greater threat to world peace than Fidel Castro. Why the unremitting and unconditional affection for Castro, but the inverse for Pinochet? I suspect that the total body count is lower for Pinochet, the repression less severe and of shorter duration, and the outcome a stable, modern democracy that's been at *least* as successful at improving the lives of its citizens as Castro's Cuba has been. Make the objective case. Take your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Get a grip, Jay: Did I ever express unremitting and unconditional affection for Castro? Did anybody in this thread? Do those birkenstock clad hippies you love to deride? Sure, Che Guevara was the hero on posters bandied about in 1970 and Fairweather has revealed that he was in fact a drug addict and a crook and in no way heroic, so yes: I'll agree there is some romanticism about Cuba or the Cuban Revolution and maybe some of us think it is pretty cool that they know how to make a good smoke but really those things will kill you so they should be reviled for this. Now: tell us what you think about any of these issues - instead of simply mocking your opponent here and trying to tie them in knots. Take your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 You guys throw numbers around like you understand them! Here is another Johns Hopkins Study for you Mattp. Via Castro! I will of couse leave it to you to diferentiate between the impact of little food and no transportation and increases in direct medical care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Are you trying to say that Bush could really help us out if he cut back on our food supply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 If I were in charge of policy I'd make trade relations and embargo easing contingent upon the regime taking concrete steps to enhance the liberty of Cuban citizens. E.g. - drop the detention of political dissidents, and we'll drop the embargo in X area. Allow unrestricted access to all broadcasts, and we'll drop Y. Pass a law guaranteeing freedom of speech or allowing for the formation of opposition parties, and we'll drop the demands that you compensate US companies that had their assets seized, etc. In the end - if there's a regime in Cuba that wants to continue playing dress-up and calling itself Communist that doesn't repress its citizens, allows them freedom of speech, freedom of movement, etc - I can live with that. Failing a stepwise approach, my second option would be to drop the embargo immediately and watch economic liberty work its magic on the regime, who could no longer blame the US for the suffering endured by its people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Wow, Jay. You really think we should be in the business of telling other countries how to run their internal affairs? You're hard core. I'm sure lots of right wing nut jobs will agree with the sentiment - those bastards are no good and we are good and they should be like us - but I doubt such a foreign policy agenda would turn out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Are you trying to say that Bush could really help us out if he cut back on our food supply? There's an idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 If I were in charge of policy I'd make trade relations and embargo easing contingent upon the regime taking concrete steps to enhance the liberty of Cuban citizens. E.g. - drop the detention of political dissidents, and we'll drop the embargo in X area. Allow unrestricted access to all broadcasts, and we'll drop Y. Pass a law guaranteeing freedom of speech or allowing for the formation of opposition parties, and we'll drop the demands that you compensate US companies that had their assets seized, etc. In the end - if there's a regime in Cuba that wants to continue playing dress-up and calling itself Communist that doesn't repress its citizens, allows them freedom of speech, freedom of movement, etc - I can live with that. Failing a stepwise approach, my second option would be to drop the embargo immediately and watch economic liberty work its magic on the regime, who could no longer blame the US for the suffering endured by its people. We don't do this w/r/t China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Failing a stepwise approach, my second option would be to drop the embargo immediately and watch economic liberty work its magic on the regime, who could no longer blame the US for the suffering endured by its people. Yeah, then they can blame the multinationals. Can't wait to get me some of those magic boneless buffalo wings! And TruckNutz are going to look great on those decaying '57 Chevys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Failing a stepwise approach, my second option would be to drop the embargo immediately and watch economic liberty work its magic on the regime, who could no longer blame the US for the suffering endured by its people. Yeah, then they can blame the multinationals. Can't wait to get me some of those magic boneless buffalo wings! And TruckNutz are going to look great on those decaying '57 Chevys. How about Cuba for your new home? Jay has pledged $50 to your relocation; I'll chip in $100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Any chance Castro might make it out our way for spring training? We could use another bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 How about Cuba for your new home? Jay has pledged $50 to your relocation; I'll chip in $100. Hell yeah, I've got a great idea for a T-shirt. It's going to drive the old timers crazy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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