Telecom immunity for illegal spying

[tvashtarkatena]

The Bush administration has been pushing for prosecutorial immunity for telecom companies who broke the law by cooperating with their illegal domestic spying program, which a FISA court ruled illegal last year and which has since been discontinued (according to the DOJ's public announcements at least). The ACLU has been watching this issue closely as well as lobbying to hold these companies accountable and uphold the rule of law. If immunity is granted, what incentive do these companies have for protecting our private information at all?

 

Panel drops immunity for telecom companies from surveillance bill

[chucK]

Well, they were in sort of a tough spot. I'm sure they were threatened, and there's no way they could fight it because they would be prosecuted for leaking classified information if they told anybody about the government's request.

 

I say give 'em immunity in exchange for turning state's evidence. But this looks like it'd be reasonable too:

"Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, the ranking Republican on the panel, is pushing a plan that would substitute the federal government as the defendant in the lawsuits against the telecommunications companies. That would mean that the government, not the companies, would pay damages in successful lawsuits." (from the above-linked article)

Edited November 16, 2007 by chucK

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, they were in sort of a tough spot. I'm sure they were threatened, and there's no way they could fight it because they would be prosecuted for leaking classified information if they told anybody about the government's request.

 

I say give 'em immunity in exchange for turning state's evidence. But this looks like it'd be reasonable too:

"Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, the ranking Republican on the panel, is pushing a plan that would substitute the federal government as the defendant in the lawsuits against the telecommunications companies. That would mean that the government, not the companies, would pay damages in successful lawsuits." (from the above-linked article)

 

Congratulations; you've been propogandized. The companies in question were not served a National Security Letter under the Patriot Act which would have included a gag order. Those are issued by the FBI. This program was run by the NSA. Those companies handed whatever the feds asked for willingly and under no threat of prosecution.

 

Secondly, why should legal culpability be shifted to the federal government, which ALREADY IS legally culpable for the illegal spying program? This shifts nothing; it simply eliminates culpability for the telecom companies.

 

Third, the federal government, given it's unlimited legal resources and ability to play the 'national security' card to have legitimate lawsuits thrown out of court, is a much tougher entity to hold accountable for criminal activity than private corporations. The Telecoms knowingly broke the law; there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be held accountable. 'Poor Telecoms'? Give me a break.

 

Finally, as I stated, if we do not hold corporations for abiding by the law and their own privacy policies, which they love to tout (and which are generally meaningless), then what incentive do they have for protecting our personal information at all? The answer is, of course, none whatsoever.

Edited November 16, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[archenemy]

Of course corporations don't respect our personal privacy. But they sure love to invade it, don't they? Not only to they insist on their "right" to examine every nook and cranny of your life, they often get you to piss in a cup before hiring you (for a job that no one's life depends on you) without thinking twice about your right to privacy.

[tvashtarkatena]

We've essentially given up our right to privacy. First to corporations, so we could get and keep our jobs. Pee tests, credit checks, employment contracts which include behavioral prohibitions outside the workplace, a whole array of electronic monitoring; you name it. By the time the federal government came around to probe our assholes, we didn't even notice.

[Crux]

Just one day before the vote, the word went out that Senator Diane Feinstein planned to vote in support of giving unconditional immunity to the telecoms, as she had so stated. In response, thousands of calls were made to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to demand he remove Feinstein from the Judiciary Committe and replace her with a Senator who would stand up to abuses of the Bush administration - and allow the investigation of the domestic spying operations to go forward. After the petitioning, all seemed quiet. But when I woke this morning, I learned that Feinstein had changed her position and cast a deciding vote against the immunity provision. We won this time.

 

Next:

Qwest CEO: NSA Punished Qwest for Refusing to Participate in Illegal Surveillance--Pre-9/11! - Hugh DAndrade, 17 October 2007, Electronic Frontier Foundation.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Could it be? Has the presence of cartilage actually been detected in the spinal columns of certain Democrats?

[kevbone]

Could it be? Has the presence of cartilage actually been detected in the spinal columns of certain Democrats?

 

Well said.....really.... all of it TTK. But....I will believe it when I see it. I have been frustrated soooooo many times in the last 7 years....I dont know what to think anymore.

 

[sexual_chocolate]

Just one day before the vote, the word went out that Senator Diane Feinstein planned to vote in support of giving unconditional immunity to the telecoms, as she had so stated. In response, thousands of calls were made to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to demand he remove Feinstein from the Judiciary Committe and replace her with a Senator who would stand up to abuses of the Bush administration - and allow the investigation of the domestic spying operations to go forward. After the petitioning, all seemed quiet. But when I woke this morning, I learned that Feinstein had changed her position and cast a deciding vote against the immunity provision. We won this time.

 

Note bold italics. If you don't think people can make a difference, think again.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Just one day before the vote, the word went out that Senator Diane Feinstein planned to vote in support of giving unconditional immunity to the telecoms, as she had so stated. In response, thousands of calls were made to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to demand he remove Feinstein from the Judiciary Committe and replace her with a Senator who would stand up to abuses of the Bush administration - and allow the investigation of the domestic spying operations to go forward. After the petitioning, all seemed quiet. But when I woke this morning, I learned that Feinstein had changed her position and cast a deciding vote against the immunity provision. We won this time.

 

Note bold italics. If you don't think people can make a difference, think again.

 

just to support the last point - when a congressman receives calls like this, they take it seriously because thousands of calls means many more people actually feel strongly about the issue and aren't calling, and they get really worried.

 

[chucK]

....and now the Bush administration has the contents of all those calls recorded and wiretaps on all of those who called.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

....and now the Bush administration has the contents of all those calls recorded and wiretaps on all of those who called.

 

you are obsessed dude. it's sick, and quite sad. really.

[kevbone]

....and now the Bush administration has the contents of all those calls recorded and wiretaps on all of those who called.

 

Exactly

[sexual_chocolate]

....and now the Bush administration has the contents of all those calls recorded and wiretaps on all of those who called.

 

you are obsessed dude. it's sick, and quite sad. really.

 

he was sorta kiddin'.

 

but a serious side-note: certainly the interwebs are combed by both software and humanoids looking for "stuff". I have a friend who was working on the software side of things, and disclosure contracts kept him from, ummm, disclosing, but yeah there's some interesting stuff happenin'.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

he was sorta kiddin'.

 

but a serious side-note: certainly the interwebs are combed by both software and humanoids looking for "stuff". I have a friend who was working on the software side of things, and disclosure contracts kept him from, ummm, disclosing, but yeah there's some interesting stuff happenin'.

 

joking or not... it got old about 4 years ago.

 

yeah, there's a lot of shenanigans going on with e-content. estamos fudidos

 

[tvashtarkatena]

joking or not... it got old about 4 years ago.

 

 

Watch it, Kevbone. This comes from the master of originality.

[archenemy]

So calling is the way to get something done? Voting sure doesn't mean shit. Look at what the Seattle gang did after everyone voted down all new taxes. They got together and.....passed new taxes.

Your vote does not mean shit.

[tvashtarkatena]

I couldn't agree less here, from personal experience

 

During the last gubenatorial election my team canvased 3 precincts. Since we all know the federal government could manage it's way out of a paper bag, state governments have become the most important government entities to move us in the right direction. In one precinct alone, our happy band of about 10 people got 150 registered Democrat infrequent voters; those who would normally blow it off, to come out and vote. That number exceeded Gregoire's winning margin (120 or 130 something) that Gregoire won by. Had we., or any group of canvasers around the state, not showed up, Gregoire would have lost to Shithead. The 2000 election is another case in point. The shame is that many precincts go uncanvased for lack of volunteers. The party that mobilizes its volunteers more effectively a week before a close election wins. Period. After these experiences, I've come to realize that every single vote matters a whole lot.

 

Calling also matters if the calling campaign is timely. Join organizations with strong lobbying efforts (sales pitch: the ACLU has one of the best if civil liberties issues is your thing) and their calling or email campaigns usually happen as the issue is being debated on the floor: very effective. How do you think Fienstein changed her vote? A well timed direct public pressure campaign.

[archenemy]

That's encouraging. I honestly do fret about the fact that it looks like people's decisions, votes, etc don't count for anything anymore. They are simply dismissed. I find that distressing.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

That's encouraging. I honestly do fret about the fact that it looks like people's decisions, votes, etc don't count for anything anymore. They are simply dismissed. I find that distressing.

 

as if tipping the margin to select one oligarchy's anointed one over another oligarchy's anointed one really matters for squat in the end

 

[tvashtarkatena]

That's encouraging. I honestly do fret about the fact that it looks like people's decisions, votes, etc don't count for anything anymore. They are simply dismissed. I find that distressing.

 

Trust me, if you've worked a campaign and seen how hard a huge army of volunteers strives to get every single vote, you'd realize how important each of those votes are. The reality of the biz is: EVERY VOTE COUNTS.

 

Look at it this way; the more apathetic the general public is, the more YOUR vote counts. The more apathetic you are, the more you're handing over your political power to some fundamentalist moron with a hefty Rapture insurance policy. Taken to extreme; if no one voted but you, shit, you'd be better off than a dictator, because you'd have some dirty little politician to do all the work and catch all the flak for it.