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Yossarian

Outer Space

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Ed,

Dans Dreadful Direct was an established line that goes at 10D or 11A. Freed years back on lead with what some say marginal gear. Then some dude named Aaron went and bolted it recently.

Looking at those bolts from Damnation Friday I wanted to puke.

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 07-03-2001).]

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Fuckin lame. I guess we should change the name to Aaron's Happy Joy Cheerful Flower Sunshine Direct, because the old name no longer applies. I'll volunteer to help chop that route.

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No shit, I think the headpoint technique is way better than bolts. There's a shit-ton of well-bolted 10d's and 11's at crags all across the country for people who want to clmb that way. Every climb at every crag in the world doesn't have to be tamed by bolts. That really pisses me off.

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Ed,

I agree and we already have a posse to help me going on in the background. It should happen in the next couple of weeks or maybe even this weekend. You should see this ruined stellar line. At first I thought it might be a good idea but after a few months and lots of looking at it I have made my decision.

-Cpt

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The bolting of DDD was a total lame act. I am in favor of chopping the bolts on DDD and on the 10b tope-rope next to Dogleg Crack but first consider if the damage to the rock can be repaired or covered up in any way so that a super obvious scar won't always be present?

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I don't know about chopping that 10b next to dogleg. Its one thing to bolt some random toprope, its another to bolt a historical tespiece that was freed in the 60's, has and is done on lead.

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Yeah I don't plan on chopping that one just DDD and any bolts on OSpace for rapping. You can get gear in for a rap if it is raining...

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Specialed -

Reread what I wrote. I was never or at least never meant to argue what you think I was arguing. I was simply stating that bolt choppers rarely stand up and take specific responsibilty for their actions. This potential situation with DDD aside Cave has refused to do so as well. What kind of bolts were used on DDD? Seems like it could have been removed easily without a posse or such a large number of declarations of intent.

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Sounds like there is a market out there for specially designed bolts that chop easily without scarring the rock, to be used specifically on controversial retroboltings. petzl?? fixe?? you guys listening?

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Peter they are the big shiny mfers that are on all the other sport crags across the nation. Ed's statement about renaming the route Arrons whatever now seems appropriate. I am not or ever will I be a politically correct person. Just don't go to one of my favorite crags and start bolting lines that have been established classics or testpieces and lead by someone with more balls than you.

Finally yes it is necessary for Aaron to read this and know I climb there a lot so he does not retrobolt Brass Balls next. Again I want to send the message to all them people that are even thinking about doing this sort of mess.

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 07-03-2001).]

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Cave -

Quote - "Just don't go to one of my favorite crags and start bolting lines that have been established classics or testpieces and lead by someone with more balls than you."

Now calm down when have I ever suggested that I was going to do that or are you just trying to insult my manhood. Jeesh! You're right you are are not PC - just a ranting fool.

I am sure who ever bolted it gets the picture by now and has stopped even listening to you. The reason I asked what kind of bolts were used is because if they were for example long life (Petzl) removing them would be more problematic than if they were wedge or five piece. See - I was trying to find a excuse for your laziness in not removing them sooner. Not to be PC but simply removing them and telling the bolter your reasons and perhaps even posting them here would accomplish at least as much as the never ending "I am going go chop those gosh darn bolts" BS.

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Hey Peter Puget, I know you weren't defending over-bolting or condemning all bolt-chopping, I just wanted to state my opinion, it wasn't directed specifically at you at all.

But you said, "Seems like it [bolts]could have been removed easily without a posse or such a large number of declarations of intent." Before you implied that bolt choppers need to stand up publicly and take responsibility for chopping. I'm lost, which one do you think is better? public responsibility and declared intent, or anonymous action.

Anyway, it sounds like everyone's more or less on the same page on this, so no point in arguing.

 

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Peter if you want to flame on whatever. Your comments seem foolish to me. You were the one asking all the questions as I merely provided the answers.

Call me a ranting fool to my face and we'll see how you turn out.

Peter this site is made for me to rant at any moment I choose too as well. I can really sense an undertone of resentment about my intentions as well as some past flamewar as your real motives.

-Cpt

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 07-03-2001).]

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Special Ed -

See my post above for my suggestion.

Cave -

Actualy in an earlier thread I agreed with chopping the bolts on DDD.

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I agree with removing the bolts on DDD. It saddens me to think of the defacing caused by the placing and the removing.

On the subject of walk off descents. Way back in the olden days, rappelling was a necessary evil. No fancy rappel stations with shiny bolts and chains, usually just iffy placements or blocks to tie off. The objective was to have some gear left after you were done.

I did Condor with my son. At the top we met up with two strong climbers who were rappelling down. We contemplated joining them, but my old dislike of rappelling overcame me and Alan and I walked off, although I am sure he would have preferred the rap. We were down and long gone before the two fellers rappelling even got to the ground. There were several parties ascending, and the resulting "opportunities for social interaction" (clusterf***) didn't look like much fun. They saw us at the packs and asked if we had run down (facetiously, I'm sure). Old geezers like me are runnin' downhill, but not like those guys meant.

My list of "to-do's" includes Outer Space and Orbit, both of which I climbed thirty years ago, and not since. I hope the intervening years haven't been too hard on them. Sounds like I'm in for some disappointment.

We climbers have a challenge to preserve a unique activity. Read Viktor Kramar's post here carefully. Let's not make climbing a technical variation on window washing or bungee jumping. The idea is to be sensitive to your surroundings and move gracefully, safely, and softly within them. If you aren't doing that, I don't know what you are doing, but what you are doing isn't climbing, at least in my definition. Enough ranting, I'm getting depressed.

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Ok done deal then. I think most are in for it. It seems as though the only arguments came from Peter. Aaron and I will take the blame for any messes.

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 07-03-2001).]

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"Call me a ranting fool to my face and we'll see how you turn out."

The faceless nature of the internet has yet again given blind courage to normally passive office worker.

As for DDD, I won't be the one to chop it, as I'd rather be climbing, but I see the value in restoring a classic route.

Anyone object to installing a zipline from the top of Castle?

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PP: what would you rather have? someone who declares their intentions, listens to input and discussion, then makes a decision; or someone who makes a rash action first, then talks about it afterwards? The Captain was just getting input from the climbing community before he ran out and chopped, instead of vice-versa.

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SpecialEd -

I would prefer no threats and exagerated statements involving testicle size. I would prefer the chopper telling the bolter if possible why he felt they were bad. Clearly Cave thinks he knows who bolted DDD but Viktor's post suggests he is wrong. Repeated threats and promises just reduce the whole debate to a childish set of rants. Most people tune out.

Caveman Quote:"And oh yeah the next time I do O space I will be choppin' any rap bolts, I promise. So all you people out there placing stupid bolts I will be on the prowl to chop them"

"I will" does not appear to be seeking consensus with the climbing community. Neither do some of Cavies other comments seem to be searching for a consensus. Do a search on the website for discussion of this issue you will see its been talked about ad nuseum. I even clearly stated I think the route s/b chopped. Yet Cavie clearly suggests otherwise. Is he listening? As I have said before a reasoned discussion based on mutual goodwill will produce the best results. Note that I am not saying that everyone s/b mamby pamby merely that they should aruge clearly and directly in a civil manner.

 

 

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You have sent personal messages to a certain pal of mine on this site filled with sarchasm and BS. YOU are the one full of shit.

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Cave,

Right on dude! Spew on those wussies! Make sure you remove the fixed gear too while on OS. Heck, take out those old fixed pins too. We are more enlightened now than Fred and his crew so we should act as such. I think I've seen you at the crag--the only one climbing naked without shoes right? Just funnin' man.

Aside: Do any of you guys have a job? Or is it just one that keeps you in front of a computer on a day like today instead of climbing?

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I was slimin up Damnation friday with shorts and tank top. Only one tiny gobie for bad technique on me elbow.

Hahahhahahah we are all wussies hahahaha.

 

Oh yeah job keeps me on the computer.

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 07-03-2001).]

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