PDX Rocky Butte climber question

[billcoe]

Question to PDX climbers and Rocky Butte Denizens (only)

 

Last night Ujahn and I hit Rocky Butte for a few laps thinking Emotional Rescue and the 5.10 and 5.11 just to the left would be nice as well. When Tim and Jeff also showed up (relatively unannounced) thought it would be nice to drop a toprope on Crack Warrior and the route to the left of it, maybe spread the load out and get a burn.

 

F*ck, I don't know how long it had been since I'd been on CW. In 1996 there had been a windstorm which broke off a large fir tree on top that you could use for a TR anchor. The stump had broken off at 6' tall, and you could still use the big tree stump for an anchor, and back it up with a horizontal crack that is essentially under a large boulder lying on top of another boulder

 

So I walk out on the little walkway to the top of the route last night, and there is Poison Oak turning red up there. Lots of it. To my surprise, the remains of the tree stump are there, it's rotted off right to the ground.

 

So, I'm left looking at the crack, which some generous soul had driven a 1/2" Kong Angle Piton into and left and a small Blue metolius as the anchor. This would have worked had it been in Yosemite granite and not at a rock quarry where many of the cracks are only the space in between 2 boulders, like this appears to be.

 

I am asking for opinions on putting in an anchor at this location right here. I want to do it. I have extensive experience setting up anchors, multipitch and toprope, without bolts and this is a spot which needs it badly due to the change in the environment which renders it so.

 

So here's your chance to comment. Be honest. Also, it you know this area, and have ideas on what you want to see for an anchor, speak up. Except for the Poison Oak, it appeared that someone had gardened the walkway fairly recently, (fresh cut stems and seeds on the path) which is surprising in that the oak didn't get dealt with.

 

I had put some conviences bolts in at the top of Tiger Paws and some other route over there once years ago. They were chopped in a couple of weeks, and later I was yelled at by 3 guys about doing it when I started talking it up to everyone about putting them back in (dropped that idea quickly!). They said they did not remove them, but pointed out that putting them in made the place unsafe, as beginners head right for the edge of the cliff to clip the bolts, and do not tie off a tree 12 feet back like they would when building a gear anchor. I totally concurred with that. In fact adding these bolts here may cause many more people to walk the path unroped to get to the bolts (I walked it unroped last night and was planning on setting up a gear anchor off the tree).

 

So, I'm asking this time up front, and these are NOT convience bolts. I will mosey around out there and ask everyone I bump into this very question to solicit opinions. If I get any objections I'll write the idea off. However, I want to see how you set it up and trust your life to it if that’s the case. I'd like to do this in a month or 2, maybe by Sept 2007 after a long comment period.

 

So here it is: what do you say? Maybe go look at the top of Crack Warrior if you haven't seen it for a while, it's radically changed.

 

[Cobra_Commander]

Bill, please go ahead with it if you think it's right. To this day I don't understand the contention about bolts at Rocky Butte. There are places to stand ground on bolt anchors, but Rocky Butte is not one of them.

[eldiente]

I've put in several TR anchors out there over thee years and they get chopped as soon as they go in. No joke, 24 hours after I put them in, they are gone. I would encourage you to install these anchors, that would be nice of you, but I bet some child molesting church goer from across the street will chop them.

 

It looks like whoever does it is using a power grinder as they aren't even removing the bolts, just grinding them off. I'd like to bivy out there some night to see who is doing this. As they go to chop my anchors, I'd push them off and that would be the end of them.

 

Really what an awful crag. The climbing could be good there, but without decent anchors it is a real pain. Nobody can honestly say there are preserving the rock by chopping the bolts when the place is a quarry, and there are junk TVs at the base of the routes. Official bounty notice: Anyone who know who chops the bolts out there? I suspect it is a local land owner, not a climber. $100 to the person who PMs me with name of whoever chopped my anchors.

 

-Nate

 

 

[DavidHiers]

I'll head over there to check it out; but the bolts sound needed.

 

I'd guard against an overly broad application of the non-chopping yellers' argument. There's only so much responsibility one can take for another's choices, and un-protected exposure is just one example.

[Winter]

I say go ahead and bolt it, but I'll bet you $20 they get chopped.

[motomagik]

They will get chopped. Don't bother. That place sucks, it's a shame, it could actually be a fun place to climb, without the broken glass, graffiti, trash, and wacko bible school crazies chopping the anchors... oh well.

[billcoe]

That place sucks, it's a shame, it could actually be a fun place to climb, without the broken glass, graffiti, trash, and wacko bible school crazies chopping the anchors... oh well.

 

I disagree. The place is great.

 

Interesting that where we were climbing last night, there was no anchors, we put our own stuff in, but there was also no glass or trash in that area, it's all down at the other end (90+ percent of it) where the bolted anchors are.

[kevbone]

They said they did not remove them, but pointed out that putting them in made the place unsafe, as beginners head right for the edge of the cliff to clip the bolts, and do not tie off a tree 12 feet back like they would when building a gear anchor. I totally concurred with that. In fact adding these bolts here may cause many more people to walk the path unroped to get to the bolts (I walked it unroped last night and was planning on setting up a gear anchor off the tree).

 

My opinion…..bolt it. As far as making it unsafe for beginners? Climb at your own risk. Sounds to me it’s more unsafe if you don’t bolt it.

 

And…..I know you love the place Bill….I suspect it’s because you live near. But that place does suck balls to climb at…..I also suspect if you lived near Broughtons you would never climb at RB again. Whatever? I would love it too if I lived how close you live to it.

 

Bolt it…..bolt it…..

 

 

[dan_forester]

why do some anchors get chopped (tiger paws area, blackberry jam, etc) while others don't? whoever these vigilantes are, they aren't super consistent.

 

personally I'd just as soon have big bolts at the top of every route.

 

I'd be surprised if it was anyone from the bible school chopping the anchors. Or a neighbor. I bet those folks are more concerned about the drug addicts and the other assorted undesirables than climbers.

[hemp22]

Hey Bill - thanks for all the work out there with spraying the oak at WR and everything.

Did you happen to hit the oak at the top of crack warrior too?

 

I agree that the area would improve with some more reliable top anchors, so I'd also say go for it - and we'll keep our fingers crossed that they stay.

[layton]

I'm going to have a longer commute to chop anchors at rocky butte from Seattle, now that I'm gone. Don't scar the gem of the northwest!

[billcoe]

I'm going to have a longer commute to chop anchors at rocky butte from Seattle, now that I'm gone. Don't scar the gem of the northwest!

 

Where does Eldente send the $100 Layton?

 

 

Jeff, I totally spaced that stuff (out of sight, out of mind) and Katies traverse poison oak too. That Poison Oak tree that got wacked down at Silver Bullett is starting to bush now too, and it should be on the list. To whomever is running the weed wacker down at silverbullet and cut down that fallen tree leaning on the cliff and screwing with that route: you rule!

[danielloveland]

Bill, please put in more anchors, nice work on dreamweaver with the epoxy. It looks likes some hicks have been whipping beer bottles at them lately. I have been climbing at the butte since 92' (back when there was bolts on bite the bullet), It is nice to see people giving this place some love. It would be great if we had better top anchors so we could climb more climbs during our evening sessions, plus some of the anchors are getting old. Currently it is a pain the @ss to setup webbing anchors on some the climbs and there is a lot of poison oak around some of the key trees you need to use. I say we should put in so many new anchors that whomever is chopping them cannot keep up. Also I think if we locate some of the anchors further over the edge of the climbs so you have to repel off of a tree to get to the bolt anchor that would keep them from getting chopped and keep the newbies from getting over their heads. We are going to try and clean up Ghost Rider and Chinese Finger Torture in the next week. These climbs look great but have been really overgrown. It would also be nice to see a bolt anchor on "close to the edge" and "toothpick" as you need so much webbing to setup this anchor and it doesn't seem like it gets much action. Plus it would make it more efficient because you could repel from the tree and then setup your anchor and climbing rope and then finish repelling to the ledge and everything would be ready to go. Just my two cents. Bill, I would like to climb with you out at the butte one day. When do you climb? Maybe we have already met. I own the snowboard and skateboard shop on 72nd and Sandy. If you are ever headed to the butte stop by our shop and say hi.

[billcoe]

Bill, please put in more anchors, nice work on dreamweaver with the epoxy. It looks likes some hicks have been whipping beer bottles at them lately.

 

 

Thanks, actually, those are all brand new routes that had never been done. Dreamweaver is the next route to the west from those chains. I'd put bolts on that and Tiger Paws a few years back and they were removed. Someone removed one of the new chains on the new route right after I put them in, so when I replaced it I slathered all that green epoxy crap you see all over it. The beer bottles tend to be slammed down by Russians after they finish quaffing a cold one. The police non-emergency number is 503-823-3333, call any time you see these asswipes is my opinion. I've had 2 near violent confrontations with these folks and did call that number once and it worked, they were busted, IN THE ACT, by the police, but they still head there.

 

 

I have been climbing at the butte since 92' (back when there was bolts on bite the bullet), It is nice to see people giving this place some love. It would be great if we had better top anchors so we could climb more climbs during our evening sessions, plus some of the anchors are getting old.

 

Like you, I think that some of these should be replaced. Go for it. Especially the old rusty crap on Flaky old man and the top of Silver Bullet where the bolts are buried in the dirt and you cannot hardly even see the rusty little head on top:-). I dug a little shelf so people clipping flaky old man would be less likely to grease off, but replacement bolts should be put in there, with an eye to being easier to get too I think, and more dirt should be removed don't you think?

 

 

Currently it is a pain the @ss to setup webbing anchors on some the climbs and there is a lot of poison oak around some of the key trees you need to use. I say we should put in so many new anchors that whomever is chopping them cannot keep up. Also I think if we locate some of the anchors further over the edge of the climbs so you have to repel off of a tree to get to the bolt anchor that would keep them from getting chopped and keep the newbies from getting over their heads. We are going to try and clean up Ghost Rider and Chinese Finger Torture in the next week. These climbs look great but have been really overgrown. It would also be nice to see a bolt anchor on "close to the edge" and "toothpick" as you need so much webbing to setup this anchor and it doesn't seem like it gets much action. Plus it would make it more efficient because you could repel from the tree and then setup your anchor and climbing rope and then finish repelling to the ledge and everything would be ready to go. Just my two cents.

 

Good on ya for cleaning those routes. They need it but I highly disagree with you on tossing bolts in willy nilly and/or adding new bolts to Toothpick and Close to the Edge. I get on Toothpick a couple of times a year and it stays real clean and isn't a problem to get on or set up. The bolt chopping issue starts because people feel it's their God given right to just add bolts to routes whereever they want, even if there have not ever been any bolts before. My opinion is why fuck up the rock and make it look like Swiss Cheese, and weak Swiss cheese at that. It is the people who put the bolts in that start this cycle and are to blame. Don't put bolts in where they are not needed and this would be a total non-issue.

 

What I am proposing is that in THIS instance, and this instance alone, they are really needed, and not a convenience thing. Now, I will say that last year I did 6 new routes or so out that and put in 5 new anchors, but they were new routes that took extensive cleaning, and not retro-bolt jobs on old routes, and I discussed this extensively with people I bumped into out there and posted it first online as well. Especially careful with bolting Glenn's route, which almost crowds Superman on Silver Bullet. Glenn cleaned that off a couple of years ago and we just waited. They are still there.

 

As far as putting them in an over the edge location. I don't know about that. The bolts on "Orient Express" are like 6-7 feet down over the edge, and I might be the only dude who ropes a tree first, I see people clamber down unroped there and it ain't an easy downclimb if you've ever done it. Scary stuff. I'd rather make the bolt placements perfect, and people can be careful or anchor before as they see fit. There are a couple of places to put them on Crack Warrior, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the best location.

 

 

BTW, share this with you - when you are cleaning, using a wire brush will make the rock slick and non-grippy as it wears away little micro rugosites. If you use a Palmyra or corn bristle broom, it will get the crap off and not make it slick. (Learned this the hard way!) Also, I was out spraying poison oak at another cliff last night and I realized that I, or someone, needs to go through the top of the butte twice a year and spray the shit everywhere we see it, and not just when it gets near the cliff edge. There's some at the top of video, some near where you want to be cleaning soon, some at the top of silver bullet, etc etc. It may be too late in the year now, as I noticed that the stuff at the top of Crack Warrior was turning red already. Especially near the anchor trees this should be done.

 

Bill, I would like to climb with you out at the butte one day. When do you climb? Maybe we have already met. I own the snowboard and skateboard shop on 72nd and Sandy. If you are ever headed to the butte stop by our shop and say hi.

 

Hey way cool! Thanks for the invite; I've seen your shop a bit ago when Ujahna nd I were heading to Gustavs for apre-pump brau's and had wondered about it. For climbing, I usually use this link Link to PDX weekday climbing thread - last Tue there were 4 of us on White Rabbit/Blackberry area. It was frikkan awesome! Join in anytime. We might have met, but it amazes me how many new people I continually bump into out there all the time. Recently I met, on 2 separate occasions, people who said they've been climbing out there for years and year that I've never laid eyes on before. One dude said he'd been going out there for 26 years, the other 15 years. Wow!

 

Anywho, join in some evening, I look forward to it !

 

[danielloveland]

Bill, you are right about toothpick it should be left alone it is so nice and clean for a butte climb. I can't believe Mcgown free climbed those routes. That is really nuts those guys were very bold. I have the old yellow book that was one of his and he drew in all these crazy aid routes on mean street.

Is the tree you use for the anchor on white rabbit free of poison oak? I went to hit it two weeks ago and it looked nasty. It is really a shame the bolts have been cut over there. Do you think anyone would mind if we placed 2 bolts on tiger eye 10/b, below Flight of the Seventh Moon? It would be fun to sport the whole route from the bottom up, seeing as there are tons of bolts on seventh moon and the 5.8 to the right of it. You could give it that Smith Rock feel(probably going to get hammered for that one). I find it funny that everyone looks down on bolting at the butte when plenty of routes are bolted at broughton. The ethic at broughton seems to be that you have to lead with gear about 20 ft and then you hit bolts at the crux moves. I think more of this ethic should be applied to the butte. More people could do mixed trad/sport at the butte. Dano

Edited August 10, 2007 by danielloveland

[billcoe]

Sprayed the shit out of that area when we finished climbing Tue. BUT I used the cheap stuff so it's gonna take a while to see results.

 

Hit the top of Espresso good so hope that patch is dead dead dead too. Got the path to the descent tunnel and the blackberries crowding the tunnel entrance too.

 

BUT, I didn't hit the oak on top of Wisdom Tooth (next route west of Birds). Thats a great route, I first led it @ 1982, and the top anchors showed up a few years later and have been unmolested. That route should be cleaned up on top, it's real, real good. If you're toproping it and come off, it's like a 15' overhang that results in a massive testical shrinking King Swing! (belay to the side as there is a slightly loose black that someday.....)

 

Don't know about the rest of your questions. Can't say and doesn't bother me, but it seems like you can TR anywhere real easy, and for bolt clip-ups like at Smith, Ozone is a short drive away.

[hemp22]

there's definitely some poison oak around the tree(s) that you use for an anchor on white rabbit. it's mostly very small plants hidden in amongst the ivy, so it's hard to see. (by the way bill, your anchor rope that we used there probabably got some on it).

 

i tend to think that a few routes would benefit from new/updated anchors where nice big trees aren't easily available to TR from - but putting in bolts at the top of every route just isn't necessary.

i do agree with your observation that the mystery bolt chopper only goes after bolts that are right up at the top of the cliff.

 

i think broughton lends itself to more of a mixed gear lead ethic due to the nature of the location & the rock. at rocky you approach from the top and can just TR everything, whereas at broughton you approach from the base and only a small percentage of climbs can be conveniently TR'd. i think the mixed gear ethic at broughton is just to use gear where it's available and bolts where it's not, regardless of where the crux is (although that changes a bit and becomes less strict on the farthest walls). certainly, some of the most popular routes there do require you to start up on gear before getting to bolts up at the crux, but i think that's mostly due to the rock at those walls, which tends to be more columnar & fractured for the bottom 20 feet. There are also some climbs where it's the other way around, and you start on bolts, then pull the crux on gear.

 

it would be nice to see some of those rusty old chains replaced in the video bluff & silver bullet area. come to think of it, there are some manky old chains at broughton that should probably be replaced too.

[danielloveland]

Bill, I have met your before. I took a look at your photos and we met about 2.5 weeks ago at the ledge of "Fandango" I used your rope to climb the ledge/anchor. You guys were climbing that 5.8 gully inbetween fandando and superman. I climbed on your rope and then you pulled my rope from superman and we traded ropes on the ledge. I remember this very well becuase we could not hear each other and I got the feeling you thought I might be trying to swindle your rope or something. Anyways, I am sure I will run into guys soon. See ya at the butte. Dano

[billcoe]

Pretty sure that wasn't me. Last time I was in the 5.8 gully (corner), it was early spring, wet, I was out with Joseph and Jimmy O and I'd forgotten my climbing shoes so was tennis shoeing it.

 

Last time I was in that area was maybe 2 weeks ago in the evening - did Glenn's route, Fandango, all 3 versions of Last Tango, and everything on Silver Bluff proper too, but not the gully.

 

But not the gully, I'm not suspicious with anybody, maybe someone who looked like me?

 

You sure? This is me (Out there last month):

 

 

 

Come out some evening eh?

[kevbone]

You are the man Bill!

[markd]

i'm hardly a rocky butte climber anymore, but i used to be.

 

my opinion would be that the bolts should go in especially if it's the only reasonable way to anchor; however, if people are going to chop them, it seems more reasonable to just not put them in. unfortunately it lets the choppers 'win' - but chopping and rebolting makes the rock lose - which to me, is always unacceptable.

 

the other option of putting the anchors lower so they are harder to chop seems reasonable as well, assuming people don't start chopping those as well.

 

bill, you guys are dealing with a tough situation and i wish you the best with it.

[danielloveland]

Bill, who is this guy in your photos - The one with the fuzzy white hair? He was climbing with a harness made out of webbing.

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/517/medium/Racking_for_the_3rd_rail.jpg

 

This is the guy I met at the butte a few weeks ago. Your right we have never met. Sure we will sometime at the butte.

Take care. Dano

Edited August 14, 2007 by danielloveland

[kevbone]

Bill, who is this guy in your photos - The one with the fuzzy white hair?

 

That be Joseph Healy.

[clif]

bill i can appreciate your pride in keeping RB safe, but spraying the cliff tops and bottoms to keep down the poison oak seems a little excessive. i'm in no way a fan of the oak but i am also not a fan of having to stick my hands, legs, face in chemical poison while passing through.

[geoff]

No doubt, safe to humans and animals as soon as it is dry. But, do not eat the oak.