Index-Princely Ambitions

[miker]

OK, so I lead Princely Ambitions yesterday and the first pitch was a ton of fun. We went ahead and did the second pitch although it was dirty as the topo mentioned. But the bolts at the top were...well we had the vocabulary discussion in another thread, but...manky, hinky, crappy, scary, pick your term. We backed ourselves up with a small tree just in case.

Now the question is who likes to replace bolts, I personally do not have the know-how/gear to do so.

That brings up a bigger philosophical question that gets thrown around here a bit, putting up new bolts, replacing bolts and even chopping bolts when in a bad mood. Who's responsibility/life's dream is to make life safer at Index?

And if no one wants to fix it, then just stick to the first pitch of Princely, that's where all the fun stuff is anyway.

mike

[TimL]

Mike,

If I remember correctly, you can traverse right from the top of Princely Ambitions p2 to the rap anchor on Dr. Sniff and the Tuna Boaters. I believe you can get to the ground with one rap with 2 60 meter ropes. You can also scramble up and right of Princely and rap of the Breakfeast of Champions/Rogers Corner Anchors. If you rap off BOC you will need two 60 meter ropes. The wall is overhanging enough that is it extremly difficult to swing to the tree rap anchors at the top of Rogers Corner p2. One rope, although it is close, is not enough with rope stretch to get you to the chain anchors on top of p1 of Rogers Corner.

One the topic of bolt replacement at Index. While climbing at Index I've come across several bolts that look like you don't even want to break wind around them let alone put your full body weight on them. (Star Drive- ins anybody!) I know the store Climb On in Squamish has a jar for people to donate change for bolt replacement. Maybe one of the shops around here would be into starting one for Index?

[This message has been edited by TimL (edited 06-22-2001).]

[Andrew_Grove]

There was an article in one of the rags, Climbing, or Rock and Ice, within the last two years about replacing bolts properly. Involved a crow-bar and drilling out the hole to the next larger size. Or, if already 3/8", fill with epoxy and rock dust, then drill a new one nearby. Might want to check around for the back issue. Some local libraries (King County) have them.

[miker]

Thanks, I will remember that for next time, we of course just took up the one 60m rope because we assumed we would be coming sraight back down. We did look over at the next anchors, but were pretty sure we wouldn't make it to the ground on our one rope.

Now what is the best way to replace bolts with minimum impact to the rock, but still provide a rock solid(pardon the pun) rap station? Do you drill out the screw, or something similar, seems like that would make for a weaker bolt unless you bring in bigger, badder screws.

anyway

live and learn, but first live

[erik]

contact daryl cramer, the auther of the current index guide book, he has a fund to replace old/bad bolts. his bro's and he are quite nice and do many anchor/bolt replacments. a service which mostly goes unnoticed/little thanks.

and 70m rope is just about the best thing for index. you can get off most routes with just one rope.

[mattp]

If the old bolts are 1/4", you can probably remove them by pounding a knifeblade piton under the hanger, doing the same with a lost arrow, and then prying them out with a crowbar. Once you get them out, inspect the bolts to be sure you didn't break one off and leave some metal in the hole (if so, you won't be able to drill in that hole any further)and you can then drill the holes out with a 3/8" or 1/2" bit, and install the appropriate new hardware.

As to what is appropriate, 3/8" has become standard but Darryl Cramer has suggested that if you are replacing a belay station it is not overkill to use 1/2" bolts. I don't know how easy it is to get hangers that are already drilled for a bolt of that size, however. One consideration would be what you then plan to use for the actual rappel/belay station, and I believe that you should install chains (or hangers with rappel rings attached directly to them) if you are going to the trouble to set a new belay station. Wads of slings are ugly and can be seen from quite a distance away, and even if they aren't chewed on by rodents the sun will immediately begin its attack and eventually they become unsafe. If installing chains, I prefer the Fixe belay chains or similar set up that is powder coated to minimize visual impact and which is convenient for as many as three climbers as well as being immediately recognizable as something that can be trusted.

I know of no way to remove 3/8" bolts. They can often be chopped and tapped back into the hole so that the stud doesn't stick out and you might then tap a pebble into the hole or use caulk or epoxy and rock dust or sand from some crumbly rock nearby, as noted already in this thread.

If anybody knows how to remove a 3/8" bolt, I'd like to learn about it. One web page has speculated that an acetylene torch might burn them out, but wouldn't this make a mess?

[slaphappy]

If you use 1/2" rawl 5-piece sleeve anchors (far stronger than expansion studs), you don't need 1/2" hangers. The sleeve is 1/2" in diameter, but the bolt is 3/8" in diameter. Be sure to put the hanger on the bolt before pounding it in. If you don't there is a good possibility of losing the threaded end in the hole.

[backcountrydog]

if the bolts your pulling out are expansion studs they can sometimes be coerced by tightening (overtightening) them. this is what you are warned against when installing. combine tightening with loosening and gentle prying with a crowbar. if the bolt is badly rusted or the threads are shot you run the risk of the bolt breaking off. but most really old bolts come out surprisingly easy a lot of times. the are several articles in the mags (as previously suggested) with lots of experienced based insight. you can put a new 3/8 in an old 3/8 hole. most old 3/8 seem to be 3inches or less in length so by using a longer shank you can facilitate the same hole (preferred). stainless steel is better than galvanized, colored hardware over shiny steel, and fixe makes a sweet 3 bolt, 1 rap ring 2 ss permanant biner, anchor system as mattp suggested.

as far as removing old bolts, bring a wrench and a prybar and go slow and most of the time you can work the old bolt out

[willstrickland]

It's plenty easy to get 1/2" hangers, pretty standard fare in my stompin' grounds of southern Utah. 3 1/2" x 1/2" are the norm in soft sandstone, and 1/2" angles hammered into 3/8" holes are pretty common as well.

I know Rawl, Metolius, and Petzl all make 1/2" and I'd bet that Fixe does as well. If you want a history lesson for soft rock belay anchors take a look at the third pitch belay on Ancient Art in the Fisher Towers...A 1/4 star-dryvin coffin nail next to a drilled angle that's half weathered out next to a fat stainless metolius 1/2" x 3 1/2"

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by willstrickland:

It's plenty easy to get 1/2" hangers, pretty standard fare in my stompin' grounds of southern Utah. 3 1/2" x 1/2" are the norm in soft sandstone, and 1/2" angles hammered into 3/8" holes are pretty common as well.

---

PLEASE don't try to get the drilled angle thing going on granite!