Gear placement--how soon, how much?

[G-spotter]

Speed is safety.

Sewing up a crack is slow.

Therefore it is unsafe.

 

placing a lot of nutz

[kevbone]

 

 

Holy crap is that photo cropped?

[counterfeitfake]

If you place pro, you will use it.

[kevbone]

You can feel all you want, but if you get it wrong and fall, you're going to get hurt. When you are just starting out, stick to routes that are well within your abilities and overprotect.

 

suppose that is the risk of climbing eh?

[RuMR]

or you could bolt it, right kev??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[blueserac]

So far you have the physics and basics of preventing ground falls, zippering, preventing factor 2 falls onto the belay in this thread.

 

Have you considered placing gear to prevent connecting with ledges if you fall en route to the ground? Also, on traversing pitches place gear for the second, such that if you lead out and fall, the pendulum will go this way; when the second slips off they will fall that way.

 

Stances on edges and ledges are great places to drop in gear as if it were a free placement. Prior to racing into the crux, consider dropping two pieces in just incase you find it tricky to do so above in the drama of the crux.

 

"when in doubt run it out...if not then, shut the @*#% up and sew it up"...sounds fun.

 

Consider two alternatives of leading, the folks that race up with barely any gear or those that do so in the same time but can adaquately pro it.

 

I find singing the Captain Kirk vs. Spock Death Match tune in my head helps gear go in.

 

 

 

 

[catbirdseat]

Placing too much gear can mean pumping out and not sending. But I find as I become more experienced, I can place gear faster and in places I wouldn't have found it before. I can place it from stances that I wouldn't have considered rests before.

 

I guess there are two approaches to protecting. One mind set is to protect in such a way that injury is completely prevented in ANY fall. The other approach is to place it such that catastrophic injury or death is prevented, but some injury is certain in a fall. I'd like to think that in the latter case, the climbing is easy enough that a fall is pretty darn unlikely. Again, with experience we can better judge the likelihood of a fall.

[111]

Now on zippering. As was noted this is affected by how closely your belayer stands to the base of the route. But what is not as commonly thought of is that the lower your first piece is, the more likely it is to zipper.

 

wanna test this? put a piece in two feet off the ground and start leading. The rope will make a right angle bend through this first piece pretty much no matter where your belayer stands in relation to the crag. If you fall, this piece will have a huge outwards and upwards pull on it and will probably zipper.

 

So if you want to avoid your gear zippering, avoid a low first piece. Lots of people get this seriously wrong.

 

I always tell people to place a high-ish first piece and extend it with a full length runner to avoid rope drag as well as the zipper.

 

As well, blueserac reminds me that when you are placing gear at a ledge stance(a large ledge), put a runner on it so that the rope doesnt have to angle in(rope drag) to connect to the gear.

 

Really, it just comes down to the "No Fall Ethic".

Edited May 10, 2007 by 111

[catbirdseat]

Extending that first piece with a long runner will tend to protect only that piece from the zipper effect. It will in fact increase the chance that pieces above will zipper out. Much better to make sure that first piece is omni-directional and sling it short.

[G-spotter]

Extending that first piece with a long runner will tend to protect only that piece from the zipper effect. It will in fact increase the chance that pieces above will zipper out. Much better to make sure that first piece is omni-directional and sling it short.

 

hooey

[catbirdseat]

You know that I am right.

[Sherri]

So far you have the physics and basics of preventing ground falls, zippering, preventing factor 2 falls onto the belay in this thread.

 

Have you considered placing gear to prevent connecting with ledges if you fall en route to the ground? Also, on traversing pitches place gear for the second, such that if you lead out and fall, the pendulum will go this way; when the second slips off they will fall that way.

 

Stances on edges and ledges are great places to drop in gear as if it were a free placement. Prior to racing into the crux, consider dropping two pieces in just incase you find it tricky to do so above in the drama of the crux.

 

"when in doubt run it out...if not then, shut the @*#% up and sew it up"...sounds fun.

 

Consider two alternatives of leading, the folks that race up with barely any gear or those that do so in the same time but can adaquately pro it.

 

I find singing the Captain Kirk vs. Spock Death Match tune in my head helps gear go in.

 

 

 

 

I sing in my head when climbing, too. But not always the same song. "Cool Change" by Little River Band comes up a lot.

 

Anyway, yes, good input about the slinging long for the ledges(which I've done to prevent rope drag more than with thought to what it does to direct my fall away from the ledge) and about placing gear with the second in mind(I'm learning to take that into account more so, now that I've gotten a little more proficient with my placements, which used to take FOREVER.)

 

I probably tend towards the "racing up" rather than "sewing up" type, especially if I feel solid with the climbing. But I think that is happening out of fear that if I stop to place a piece, I may burn out and sketch in a spot I feel I otherwise could have climbed through had I kept going. I'm trying to pay more attention to this now, and make sure that I'm not avoiding gear placement based on this mindset.

 

CBS, that's the first I've heard about putting a short sling on the first piece(which I make almost always make a cam as opposed to a nut). I thought the long sling helped with preventing rope drag and the cam walking here. I didn't know it increased zippering potential.

 

There sure is a lot to learn. But I love it.

 

 

[catbirdseat]

If the first piece has a shorter sling than the ones above it there will be no outward force on those pieces because their slings will never go tight, but rather hang down on the rope.

 

That first piece can be a cam or it can be nuts set in opposition, or a single nut slotted really well against an outward pull. If a cam, it should be angled out a little more than you would normally set a cam.

[G-spotter]

You know that I am right.

 

whatever

[G-spotter]

If the first piece has a short sling it will increase rope drag.

 

Rope drag by itself can pull a piece out.

 

Avod rope drag as much as possible.

[catbirdseat]

A short sling MIGHT increase rope drag. It depends on the topography of the rock. If the rock projects above the piece in question then certainly you'd want to sling it long.

 

Sherri, don't get wrapped up in rule-based thinking. Do what makes sense given the situation. Rope through carabiner isn't what causes drag, it's rope over rock. If the short sling does not cause the rope to be pulled against the rock you will not get excessive drag.

[blueserac]

Rope drag!!! Oh, I wanna play too. How can we develop strong quads without rope drag? Rope drag does well we all know what it does to a relaxed mind. It can also cause pieces to go on a walk-about, redress themselves in situ, and jump for joy.

 

When loaded a line with prior rope drag will do its best at living a straight life. So, if you have a 90 degree angle along this eventual line the rope will lift, pull, rotate gear in the process of shaking off the kinks.

 

Runners or extensions provide the ability to increase a straight line and increases in reduction of rope drag.

 

For most intermediate routes that I have come across their are many opportunities to finding or creating stances, however breif, to pause and place gear. It seems that people choose to act in one of two ways when climbing, whether by choice or by default, yet they either react to the difficulties of the route or they take their composure to the route and dance. Getting all stressed out in a awkward stance that feels backwards and is slipping, then the sewing-machine leg shows up to tell you it is time to move, doesn't help that free flowing fluidity of taking your composure to the route.

 

So what am I trying to say...you can either layback that flake and be reactionary or perhaps you can face straight in and jam it.

 

 

 

 

[blueserac]

Sherri have a look at this link: http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors2.2.pdf

 

It isn't directly related to placing running pro yet you might find either amusement or interest.

[Drederek]

 

I find singing the Captain Kirk vs. Spock Death Match tune in my head helps gear go in.

 

 

 

You mean when Spock went into heat?

[blueserac]

Yes during his pon farr where Kirk assisted his kunat kalifee.

Edited May 11, 2007 by blueserac

[bstach]

Sherri, I agree with the advice not to put too much gear in the beginning of a climb. This is assuming there are no specific moves you need to protect and the climbing is comfortable. My reasons have all already been mentioned in this thread and I will add one more:

 

Unless you are carrying a massive rack, you may actually need that gear higher up. Sucks to have to run out the crux because you need one of the 5 pieces you placed in the first 20 ft. I find climbing is more fun if I travel light, which means being smart about what/how much I place down low and what I save for higher up. My point is to remember to size-up the pitch before you start to get an idea of what sizes you will need and where.

 

This is just one more thing to think about as you lead up. But don't worry, start practising this stuff and it will all come automatic before you know it.

[Sherri]

Sherri have a look at this link: http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors2.2.pdf

 

It isn't directly related to placing running pro yet you might find either amusement or interest.

 

Thanks! Great link. Going to print it off for future reference.

 

Also, thanks bstach. That's good advice about ascertaining where and when you're going to want that gear to be available. Kind of like not spending all your church money at the candy store. It WILL come back to haunt you.

 

I'm finding that the more I practice, the more questions I have. Not in a bad way, though. Just finding different things coming to attention now that I'm getting into it, and it helps to hear how other folks approach different scenarios. If I can learn a bit from those with more experience, that would be great. It's not like anyone would intentionally mislead me, like, say, for instance, starting a rumor that you can't take peanut butter into Canada anymore....

[bstach]

It's not like anyone would intentionally mislead me, like, say, for instance, starting a rumor that you can't take peanut butter into Canada anymore....

 

That was a good one

[G-spotter]

If peanut butter is criminalized, the terrorists will win.

[counterfeitfake]

If peanut butter is outlawed, only outlaws will have peanut butter.