JayB Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 In an econ class I learned something interesting. We were discussing the impact that donated foodstuffs had on local markets. We studied a small, poor, isolated spot in Africa (I'm afraid I don't remember the name) that was suffering pretty bad poverty and starvation. We sent food. As a result, the food which was on the market in that area was not able to be sold at all b/c free and cheaper donated food was suddenly available. The local market, although already shakey, was now completely destroyed. Folks because totally dependent on the donated food. I was surprised by this result (which seems obvious once someone pointed it out to me), but I realized that donation is not always the answer. And the impacts of donation are not always good. Therefore, I have a hard time thinking that donating money, time, talk to a problem is going to solve it. I agree that children need to be taken care of. But what if we didn't have so many in the first place? What if birth control and voluntary sterilzation were made available to all people who wanted it but couldn't afford it. What if there were a concerted effort to reach out to people and let them know that this option were available to them. What if it were available to them right there in a mobile medical unit? What if it worked in concert with a groundswell of changing attitudes toward procreation and women's rights? What if attitudes about manliness and virility changed? What if this were true all around the world? Would that make a difference on the poverty levels? I don't know. But I know that what we are doing and even much of what we are attempting to do right now is not working. If its not working, stop doing it and try something else. I am sure people who study and work in this area must have already discussed all these things. Why are they not happening? Why don't the rest of us who are not educated about these options or initiatives not hearing about it? I have to wonder. You should read "The Road to Hell" by Michael Maren, which discusses the significant role that aid - especially food aid - played in the dynamics that lead to civil-war/famine Somalia. One of the more eye-opening books that you'll ever read. If you get a chance to talk to aid workers that lived in Africa - not those that went on a two week charity junket, that can also be very illuminating. My wife spent two years as a Peace Corps volunteer over there and the experience significantly changed her thinking with regards to the nature and extent of the aid that the rest of the world should provide if the aim is actually to foster development, rather dependence and corruption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 But, no. On second though. It's better to do nothing. First, do no harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Rx For Survival is an award winning documentary series that describes many of these programs from a public health standpoint. I highly recommend renting it. Way more to the point and educational the arguing about how many toasters Germans have as compared to Americans (completely fucking irrelavent, considering the cultural differences). This was an excellent program and really puts the subject in persepective. But, no. On second though. It's better to do nothing. It's also worth asking why Africa - unlike Asia - is so collossally fucked that they can't even begin to implement rudimentary public health measures, much less make enough money to afford mosquito nets, much less medications, despite massive and sustained infusions of aid for the past 40-plus years. This relates directly to the question of whether it was aid, or something else, that has enabled China, Singapore, Korea, Indonesia, etc to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty over the same period of time. This also relates directly to the question of whether societies that organize their economies in such a way as to optimize wealth creation - as opposed to wealth distribution - lead to higher absolute incomes and lower levels of absolute poverty over time, which takes us back to the credibility of the original study that asserted the poorest citizens in the US were just marginally better off than the poorest citizens in Russia and Mexico. Was there actually a point to this study other than to inject a bit more socioligical embalming fluid into Socialism's carcass so that the faithful will be inspired to continue the ongoing experiment against reality? I'm reading Schumpeter's "Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy," now, and one of the central arguments in the book is that: "...the success of capitalism will lead to a form of corporatism and a fostering of values that are hostile to capitalism, especially among intellectuals. The intellectual and social climate needed to allow entrepreneurship to thrive will not exist in advanced capitalism; it will be replaced by socialism in some form. There will not be a revolution, but merely a trend in parliaments to elect social democratic parties of one stripe or another. He argued that capitalism will collapse from within as democratic majorities vote for the creation of a welfare state and place restrictions upon entrepreneurship that will burden and destroy the capitalist structure." He may yet be vindicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 You should read "The Road to Hell" by Michael Maren, which discusses the significant role that aid - especially food aid - played in the dynamics that lead to civil-war/famine Somalia. One of the more eye-opening books that you'll ever read. If you get a chance to talk to aid workers that lived in Africa - not those that went on a two week charity junket, that can also be very illuminating. My wife spent two years as a Peace Corps volunteer over there and the experience significantly changed her thinking with regards to the nature and extent of the aid that the rest of the world should provide if the aim is actually to foster development, rather dependence and corruption. Well at least folks are bring up some very good books and films on the subject this morning. The Road to Hell is a very sobering look at the subject. I have two friends on in Ethiopia (been there 8 yrs) the second in Bolivia (3 yrs). Both are doing work in health care/poverty issues and these folks are not wide-eyed, but they are optomists. Sometimes I wonder why. From working with these two groups, and help to raise funds, by biased assesment is that folks drop into one of three catagories. 1) those naive people who will donate to any cause and think they're doing something worthwhile, 2) those who will never donate to anything because it will be "wasted" and would rather spend it on another triple mocha something every day, and 3) those who care, but are skeptical and ask the right questions. Give that we have so much resources in this country I wish there were more of #3. Jay- check out "Acts of Faith" for a good read on religious intentions in sub-saharan Africia. Carry on - gotta pack up for field work in the high desert of CA for a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 "...the success of capitalism will lead to a form of corporatism and a fostering of values that are hostile to capitalism, especially among intellectuals. " He may yet be vindicated. OK one more reply. This is a bunch of crap. You have to be kidding. Capitalism has been a positive feedback loop for the corporations and the elite. The social welfare net in the US is in tatters while the corporate tax rate is at a historical low. Forces hostile to capitalism? You're kidding right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 I read the book he referred to, and there are some good points made. But if one follows up that book with "The Road To Serfdom" by Hayek (who published right around the same time), you'll get a viewpoint that has truely been vindicated. Unlike Schrumpter, he doesn't say things like there will be a declining need for the entreprenuer (which just has not been proven to be true in any way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 I will add that one to the hit list on Amazon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 No way. I feel honored. The cool thing is that you will come back to me later with a much more comprehensive understanding of it than I was able to get. Looking forward to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 "...the success of capitalism will lead to a form of corporatism and a fostering of values that are hostile to capitalism, especially among intellectuals. " He may yet be vindicated. OK one more reply. This is a bunch of crap. You have to be kidding. Capitalism has been a positive feedback loop for the corporations and the elite. The social welfare net in the US is in tatters while the corporate tax rate is at a historical low. Forces hostile to capitalism? You're kidding right? You and your perspective are the ultimate vindication of this argument. The operation of the market economy in the United States is the reason that you - unlike the folks that your friends work with and you take justified pity on - are prosperous enough to be a donor, rather than a recipient, of international charity, yet you seem to have this inveterate hostility towards the very system that created the wealth that you wish to distribute. There are scores of millions of people like you in the US, and if you don't constitute a majority opinion, it's mighty close. Head overseas and I'd say you are clearly in the majority. Not sure how this renders Schumpeter's predictions "crap." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 No way. I feel honored. The cool thing is that you will come back to me later with a much more comprehensive understanding of it than I was able to get. Looking forward to it! I was talking about Jim's book, but your recommendation is also a worthy one. If you liked "The Road to Serfdom," you should check out "The Constitution of Liberty," also by Von Hayek. His essay "Socialism and the Intellectuals is also worth a read, and is available in PDF form on the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 The social welfare net in the US is in tatters while the corporate tax rate is at a historical low. We are sinking bail faster! Faster! Faster! The best rate for corporate taxation is...(drumroll)...zero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 And as for book suggestions here's mine: Trading Up oddly I may have an extra copy around the house if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 No way. I feel honored. The cool thing is that you will come back to me later with a much more comprehensive understanding of it than I was able to get. Looking forward to it! I was talking about Jim's book, but your recommendation is also a worthy one. If you liked "The Road to Serfdom," you should check out "The Constitution of Liberty," also by Von Hayek. His essay "Socialism and the Intellectuals is also worth a read, and is available in PDF form on the web. Now I feel like a horse's ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 that how all intellectuals feel after an afternoon with JayB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 So I'm in good company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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