All Religions are not Equal

[kevbone]

Satin. Satin. Satin.

[Seahawks]

you don't have many friends that are religious, do you?

 

What do you mean by "religious"? Do I have friends who carry personal beliefs about their origin and have spirituality? Everyone I know, myself included, have that. Do I have friends who go to church and center their life around organized religion? Not really, and it's no accident why. There's a tangible barrier; you can feel the judgment seething out of them even if they never verbalize it. Every conversation drops out some little jab about "getting your life in order" or somesuch as if I projected any sort of discord and was seeking their advice.

And you know what Underworld? I'm happy for them. I respect the fact that religion gives them structure and comfort, and they can have it. I wouldn't pretend to suggest that government, media, or the social structure in general attempt to stifle people's religious beliefs. But if Christians, Muslims, or whoever, is going to bring up the issue with me, uninvited, then I'm free to tell them what I think of their system all the same and suggest that they alter the way they view others. And that's only a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. Most of them won't listen long enough to consider it, let alone take it, or leave it.

 

Very mature outlook. First common sense for Kevbone

[StevenSeagal]

 

I do think you are for trying to cause problems. You would be the one in History killing people becuase they don't have your beleifs.

 

Holy Shit, Seachicken- see most post above if you want my view on that subject.

 

You're proving my point with this wild assumption- that expressing a non-belief in God or at least, God's that man have in my opinion, invented, causes a hysterical response by believers- in this case- "THAT ATHEIST OVER THERE WANTS TO TAKE AWAY YOUR RELIGION AND KILL YOU!". Before long, the battle cry becomes "KILL THAT GODLESS CRETIN BEFORE HE POISONS YOUR MIND AND KILLS YOU!"

 

Give a knee jerk response, you can expect one back.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

you guys are masters of obfuscation and diversion.

 

Say what? Your post kicking this off is example number one of obfuscation and diversion.

 

Given the way discussions go around here, and your frequent role in slamming the miserable and pathetic excuses for human beings you see in the whiny liberals on this board, you can only have hoped for the reaction to be some critique of Christianity and a bandstand for you to go on your soapbox about how secular humanism is devoid of human spirit or whatever your point may be.

 

It was an intersting post, though the main point I can draw from it is that there are some freaks who do weird and potentially dangerous things in the name of religion.

 

once again you're way off base.

 

what I often hear from liberals and lefties in general is that we have to be "non-judgemental" of other cultures. all cultures are the same; all religions are the same. Moral relativism reigns supreme.

 

I also hear and see repeated, concerted attacks on Christians - American Christians in particular, who are painted as extremists, ignorant, superstitious, und so weiter.

 

All this criticism takes place in an insipid, cultural vacuum. The typical background of this group are Anglo-centric, ignorant, narcissistic, pseudo-intellectuals pontificating on "injustice", "subjugation", "discrimination" and a myriad of other topics whose worldview is impoverished, unidimensional, and softened by a comparatively rich, luxurious, and pain-free lifestyle. And the response to my initial post from people like Dru and ChucK only reinforces this thesis.

 

[underworld]

you don't have many friends that are religious, do you?

 

What do you mean by "religious"? Do I have friends who carry personal beliefs about their origin and have spirituality? Everyone I know, myself included, have that. Do I have friends who go to church and center their life around organized religion? Not really, and it's no accident why. There's a tangible barrier; you can feel the judgment seething out of them even if they never verbalize it. Every conversation drops out some little jab about "getting your life in order" or somesuch as if I projected any sort of discord and was seeking their advice.

And you know what Underworld? I'm happy for them. I respect the fact that religion gives them structure and comfort, and they can have it. I wouldn't pretend to suggest that government, media, or the social structure in general attempt to stifle people's religious beliefs. But if Christians, Muslims, or whoever, is going to bring up the issue with me, uninvited, then I'm free to tell them what I think of their system all the same and suggest that they alter the way they view others. And that's only a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. Most of them won't listen long enough to consider it, let alone take it, or leave it.

 

fair enough.

 

religion, as it is in this thread, is a talkig point. people bring it up as conversation a lot of the time and unfortunatly some put up a big defensive wall to make sure there are no attempts at converting. kind of a knee-jerk reaction. i grew up going to church every sunday (and then some)...i don't so much anymore, but i certainly like to talk about religion just as i like to talk about politics. in neither case do i try and convert. i get just as annoyed by those that do - both in religion and in politics.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Oh c'mon, what is Christianity but the pathetic whining of an emotional two year old, stamping it's foot and declaring, "ME! I am important and I WILL live forever. I AM SPECIAL." Grow up and face the facts: once you die, it's maggots and weevils forever after, amen. You're not the blessed child of some god, and the only immortality you can hope for is either a drop of your DNA in the river, or the small effect your individual self will have on those you leave behind.

 

yeah, that's a great fucking vision of life. no wonder atheists are so hateful, pathetic, and unhappy.

 

 

so what you're saying is that for you religion is the "green pill" and the reason you're happy? i know many happy atheists who go on about life in a very positive way. when you know that your life is finite, you tend to live it fully.

 

I am talking about rabid, anti-religious atheists. Many agnostics and "quiet" atheists have found happiness. I apply the above comments related to only to the former group, and those are the ones you hear from the most.

[minx]

eric b-- our society is far more skewed towards religion than it is for the athiests. evolutions is not a theory, it belongs in a science class, creationism belongs in a social studies class. teach it there, i don't care but don't teach my child religion in science class. please. in my son's grade school, there was once a reading of the story of jesus's birth and another christmas related story the next year. gee--way to keep that religion out of the classroom. there wasn't a story about hannukah or ramadan or shiva. just jesus.

 

my son has been told on several occasions that his mom is going to hel b/c we don't go to church. gee thanks. 'preciate that nice warm fuzzy bit of christianity.

[minx]

Satin. Satin. Satin.

 

what do my sheets have to do with any of this?

 

 

:fahq: :fahq:

[KaskadskyjKozak]

those with religious ideals feel mandated to spread their version and are not content to let everyone coexist with their belief system.

 

nope. some do.

 

many people of faith consider your life's journey to involve periods of faith being cyclical and part of a lifelong process. at times it is expected you would question the existence of God, the purpose of life and so on. It is a personal journey that everyone must undertake. Forcing someone to think a certain way at a certain period of time in their life damages this process.

The gospels support this notion (the workers who are paid the same salary and do less than a day's work); and some saints have led lives exemplifying this process as well (Augustine).

 

and don't confuse talking about religion and faith as forcing it on you. it's not the same.

[archenemy]

yes, but what if the contradictions are entirely inconsistent within any moral, ethical, legal, etc. framework?

do you think "anything goes"?

I have not read through the rest of the posts yet, so all I can hope is that we are not going down the tired road of total relativism again.

Of course I don't believe that. Does anyone, truly?

[Seahawks]

eric b-- our society is far more skewed towards religion than it is for the athiests. evolutions is not a theory, it belongs in a science class, creationism belongs in a social studies class. teach it there, i don't care but don't teach my child religion in science class. please. in my son's grade school, there was once a reading of the story of jesus's birth and another christmas related story the next year. gee--way to keep that religion out of the classroom. there wasn't a story about hannukah or ramadan or shiva. just jesus.

 

my son has been told on several occasions that his mom is going to hel b/c we don't go to church. gee thanks. 'preciate that nice warm fuzzy bit of christianity.

 

I knew this was coming back to the evolution debate again. Once again Evolution is a Theory. It takes just as much faith to beleive in evolution. So please don't try to teach my son something that is your religion (evoluction). You want to beleive you came from nothing fine, but don't shove that crap down my or my sons throat. I personally beleive they should leave eloution and creation out of classroom and teach science. There is plently to learn about the elements and how they work, that everyone can agree on. Science can move forward.

[archenemy]

I think I mean to say that I have never felt the need to confine others' ways of thinking to the contricts of consisteny, rationality, etc.

I believe it is a uniquely human trait to be able to hold two seemingly conflicting ideals at once and still be able to function, make decisions, accept others, and accept themselves. I see beauty in that.

 

And I think it's a uniquely human trait to observe someone holding two seemingly conflicting ideals at once, and feel compelled to point out this irony.

.

So is the abuse of young boys by Catholic Priests just another by-product of the "beauty of humanity"?

I think I have been completely misinterpreted here. Two conflicting ideals WITHIN the same human being. I was referring to the quote I included in my post

Edited February 1, 2007 by archenemy

[ericb]

 

I do think you are for trying to cause problems. You would be the one in History killing people becuase they don't have your beleifs.

 

Holy Shit, Seachicken- see most post above if you want my view on that subject.

 

You're proving my point with this wild assumption- that expressing a non-belief in God or at least, God's that man have in my opinion, invented, causes a hysterical response by believers- in this case- "THAT ATHEIST OVER THERE WANTS TO TAKE AWAY YOUR RELIGION AND KILL YOU!". Before long, the battle cry becomes "KILL THAT GODLESS CRETIN BEFORE HE POISONS YOUR MIND AND KILLS YOU!"

 

Give a knee jerk response, you can expect one back.

 

Or put another more rational way, it would not be a totally crazy statement to say that perhaps the actions of the religious right could be viewed as defensive rather than offensive. Perhaps they are no less guilty of trying to shove their world view down others throats than the liberals. If you earnestly believe that Christians are trying to force their religion on you, it is understandible that you would fight vehemently to prevent this. In the same way, it certainly should give you a different lens through which to view some of the actions of the Right. I'm not saying I agree with everything that they are doing, or the methods that they employ, but I think to some degree, the liberals have created their own monster.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

eric b-- our society is far more skewed towards religion than it is for the athiests. evolutions is not a theory, it belongs in a science class, creationism belongs in a social studies class. teach it there, i don't care but don't teach my child religion in science class. please. in my son's grade school, there was once a reading of the story of jesus's birth and another christmas related story the next year. gee--way to keep that religion out of the classroom. there wasn't a story about hannukah or ramadan or shiva. just jesus.

 

my son has been told on several occasions that his mom is going to hel b/c we don't go to church. gee thanks. 'preciate that nice warm fuzzy bit of christianity.

 

I knew this was coming back to the evolution debate again. Once again Evolution is a Theory. It takes just as much faith to beleive in evolution. So please don't try to teach my son something that is your religion (evoluction). You want to beleive you came from nothing fine, but don't shove that crap down my or my sons throat. I personally beleive they should leave eloution and creation out of classroom and teach science. There is plently to learn about the elements and how they work, that everyone can agree on. Science can move forward.

 

I believe in God and evolution. So did the last Pope.

 

[kevbone]

Would anyone care to try to prove that God exists?

[kevbone]

Here is my God.....

 

[StevenSeagal]

 

fair enough.

 

religion, as it is in this thread, is a talkig point. people bring it up as conversation a lot of the time and unfortunatly some put up a big defensive wall to make sure there are no attempts at converting. kind of a knee-jerk reaction. i grew up going to church every sunday (and then some)...i don't so much anymore, but i certainly like to talk about religion just as i like to talk about politics. in neither case do i try and convert. i get just as annoyed by those that do - both in religion and in politics.

 

 

This is a problem that has particular relevance here in western culture- we assert our beliefs onto others rather than enquiring into the beliefs of others. There's no curiosity about the other, only a desire to talk about one's self, and then promote it.

 

By far the most stimulating "religious" conversations I've had were in Asia- total strangers will approach and want to know all about you- what do you believe, how do you view this, that, etc. But in my experiences it was never an inquisition or condescending, it was genuine interest, and not with a follow up attempt to persuade you to change your views. They would explain their views, of course, but it was a simple exchange; in the course of the relationship there was a mutual respect that allowed each person's views to hold equal validity and importance in the conversation, everything was considered and everything was discussed. In the end, both people would learn and take something useful away in the absence of engaging one another's egos and creating the defensive response we've been talking about here. Great stuff.

 

 

 

 

[underworld]

eric b-- our society is far more skewed towards religion than it is for the athiests. evolutions is not a theory, it belongs in a science class, creationism belongs in a social studies class. teach it there, i don't care but don't teach my child religion in science class. please. in my son's grade school, there was once a reading of the story of jesus's birth and another christmas related story the next year. gee--way to keep that religion out of the classroom. there wasn't a story about hannukah or ramadan or shiva. just jesus.

 

my son has been told on several occasions that his mom is going to hel b/c we don't go to church. gee thanks. 'preciate that nice warm fuzzy bit of christianity.

 

kids are also hearing stories of harry potter and other 'magical' things. do those books skrew em up just as much? is it the story (or the story teller's) fault that your kid is confused?

 

the "your mom is going to hell" stuff is way out of line. take it up with the school, not with christianity.

 

[Seahawks]

Would anyone care to try to prove that God exists?

 

Like to see you prove he doesn't.

[StevenSeagal]

and don't confuse talking about religion and faith as forcing it on you. it's not the same.

 

Probably the best point made in this thread so far.

[archenemy]

those with religious ideals feel mandated to spread their version and are not content to let everyone coexist with their belief system.

 

nope. some do.

 

many people of faith consider your life's journey to involve periods of faith being cyclical and part of a lifelong process. at times it is expected you would question the existence of God, the purpose of life and so on. It is a personal journey that everyone must undertake. Forcing someone to think a certain way at a certain period of time in their life damages this process.

The gospels support this notion (the workers who are paid the same salary and do less than a day's work); and some saints have led lives exemplifying this process as well (Augustine).

 

and don't confuse talking about religion and faith as forcing it on you. it's not the same.

This is an excellent post.

[kevbone]

SATAN

 

Holy crap....STFU.... you moralizing chumps.

 

[Seahawks]

eric b-- our society is far more skewed towards religion than it is for the athiests. evolutions is not a theory, it belongs in a science class, creationism belongs in a social studies class. teach it there, i don't care but don't teach my child religion in science class. please. in my son's grade school, there was once a reading of the story of jesus's birth and another christmas related story the next year. gee--way to keep that religion out of the classroom. there wasn't a story about hannukah or ramadan or shiva. just jesus.

 

my son has been told on several occasions that his mom is going to hel b/c we don't go to church. gee thanks. 'preciate that nice warm fuzzy bit of christianity.

 

I knew this was coming back to the evolution debate again. Once again Evolution is a Theory. It takes just as much faith to beleive in evolution. So please don't try to teach my son something that is your religion (evoluction). You want to beleive you came from nothing fine, but don't shove that crap down my or my sons throat. I personally beleive they should leave eloution and creation out of classroom and teach science. There is plently to learn about the elements and how they work, that everyone can agree on. Science can move forward.

 

I believe in God and evolution. So did the last Pope.

 

I beleive in Micro evolution not Macro but big deal. Plenty of science for classroom with out Creationism or evolution.

[archenemy]

 

fair enough.

 

religion, as it is in this thread, is a talkig point. people bring it up as conversation a lot of the time and unfortunatly some put up a big defensive wall to make sure there are no attempts at converting. kind of a knee-jerk reaction. i grew up going to church every sunday (and then some)...i don't so much anymore, but i certainly like to talk about religion just as i like to talk about politics. in neither case do i try and convert. i get just as annoyed by those that do - both in religion and in politics.

 

 

This is a problem that has particular relevance here in western culture- we assert our beliefs onto others rather than enquiring into the beliefs of others. There's no curiosity about the other, only a desire to talk about one's self, and then promote it.

 

By far the most stimulating "religious" conversations I've had were in Asia- total strangers will approach and want to know all about you- what do you believe, how do you view this, that, etc. But in my experiences it was never an inquisition or condescending, it was genuine interest, and not with a follow up attempt to persuade you to change your views. They would explain their views, of course, but it was a simple exchange; in the course of the relationship there was a mutual respect that allowed each person's views to hold equal validity and importance in the conversation, everything was considered and everything was discussed. In the end, both people would learn and take something useful away in the absence of engaging one another's egos and creating the defensive response we've been talking about here. Great stuff.

 

 

 

Face to face, this is how my discussions around religion and spirituality go (the folks on this thread whom I've had these exchanges with can verify this I am certain). Any other type of discussion (face to face) I withdraw from. I think more and more people are like this now. People realize that blugeoning someone over the head with your thoughts doesn't work when you are sitting across from them.

[kevbone]

Would anyone care to try to prove that God exists?

 

Like to see you prove he doesn't.

 

 

Doesnt work that way. If you were a preacher and wanted me to convert to your religion....the burden of proof would fall on you.