SC and Prole: We told you so

[Fairweather]

Time for Chavez to get slapped.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6243299.stm

[pink]

because socialism works.

[JayB]

"Mr Chavez said Venezuela was moving towards "a socialist republic" that required "deep reform of our national constitution".

 

"We are in an existential moment of Venezuelan life," he said. "We're heading toward socialism, and nothing and no-one can prevent it."

 

Mr Chavez demanded an end to the current autonomy of the country's central bank and said he would ask Venezuela's parliament to grant him additional powers to legislate by presidential decree."

 

Shocking, that.

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

I hardly consider any of this as shocking. I think he clearly stated his intent to nationalize certain key industries, so there's no inconsistency with the above actions.

 

It seems to me that a reasonable response to the failure of a particular approach to bring any semblance of equity and justice to a given society is to change one's approach; through a democratic process, this is exactly what has happened in venezuela. only time will tell how it pans out.

 

Oh and did you notice that daniel ortega won (another) democratic election in nicaragua? i guess a decade and a half of neo-liberal economic policies didn't quite do what their proponents promised (now we'll see if a different approach changes conditions for those most in need of change).

[JayB]

I really was, shocked. Seriously. The state seizing the most valuable and productive private assets? In a socialist country? In South America? I mean, come-ON? Unhead of.

 

I do agree with you that as time goes on there will be quite a bit more economic equality in Venezuela. I am not convinced that this will be the result of increases in the average person's standard of living, but a certain kind of equality will be the inexorable conclusion that Chavez brings to Venezuela.

[joblo7]

don't fuck with democracy!!! go hugo! screw the imperialists!!!!

[Dechristo]

King Hugo

[sexual_chocolate]

there already has been a drop in the poverty rate, dramatic increases in access to health care, education, food, water, etc etc. ie. an increase in the standard of living for those most in need of such an increase.

[Fairweather]

Freedom versus equity? What Hugo is up to goes beyond socialism. He's 100% Castro - albeit a bit more patient. As for Ortega, I admire him in one sense - as one of the only entrenched communist leaders to ever expose himself to a fair election and step down at its conclusion. He claims to have reformed his thinking re private property, and so far I've seen no reason to doubt his sincerity.

[sexual_chocolate]

hey fairweather, if you were one of the impoverished in venezuela, do you think there might be a chance you would feel differently about hugo and the role of government?

[Fairweather]

Absolutely not. But I might be upset at my nation's oil weath being exported to Cuba and the jungles of Colombia.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Fairweather

[sexual_chocolate]

I see: a man of principle, entirely unaffected by your circumstances, unconditioned, and living as the embodiment of objectively arrived at truth!

[Dechristo]

Mah-teel-da

 

Mah-teel-da

 

Mah-teel-da, she take kuh mah mun nee anda run tuh Venezuela

[Fairweather]

Are you honestly trying to say you support Chavez as the embodiment of the Venezuelan people's aspirations? A dictator? C'mon, SC, I think deep down you can see this guy is rotten.

[JayB]

there already has been a drop in the poverty rate, dramatic increases in access to health care, education, food, water, etc etc. ie. an increase in the standard of living for those most in need of such an increase.

 

There's always a holliday during the confiscation phase. Once there's nothing left to confiscate and the price mechanism has been fully supplanted by central planning, economic calculation becomes impossible, as is efficiently coordinating supply and demand, and outright economic decline and mass impoverishment are guaranteed outcomes. There is no escape from this.

 

The only variables that will meaningfully affect the chronology are the price of oil and Venezuela's ability to maintain its production of this commodity. I personally thought that Hugo'd be smart enough to dupe foreign oil companies into sinking enough capital into the fields to prop up production for a while longer before confiscating their assest, but it appears he's feeling flush these days, so he may take a cleaver to the golden goose a bit earlier than I'd expected.

[sexual_chocolate]

my support has nothing to do with it, but i do see chavez as both the embodiment of (most of) the venezuelan people's aspirations (how can one argue otherwise?), AND an alternative to years of political and economic oppression under former leaders and their agendas.

 

and i don't know what you mean by "rotten".

[sexual_chocolate]

There's always a holliday during the confiscation phase. Once there's nothing left to confiscate and the price mechanism has been fully supplanted by central planning....

 

we'll see if the path leads to this level of state control. i don't know if he's planning a soviet level of central planning;

my suspicion is "no". there's a decent chance time will tell, i suppose....

[JayB]

What he lacks in discipline he'll more than make up for with ineptitude. The path wander a bit, but of the final destination there is absolutely no doubt.

 

Prices communicate real information about the relationship between supply and demand, which are a function of realities that cannot be eliminated. When food is scarce, the price goes up. Artificially suppress the price and you suppress effective demand, which effectively prevents the generation of additional supplies.

 

Regimes such as Chavez's can attempt to control prices, but since they cannot control the realities and contingencies that generate them, this experiment is doomed. Moreover, once they no longer have the information provided by prices to engage in economic calculations, they won't even be able to tell if a particular enterprise is generating outputs that are worth more than their inputs. Is state-run company X generating a profit or loss? Who knows.

 

Expand this example infinitely and you begin to see the process by which the missallocation of resources that characterizes socialism generates the cumulative depletion of productive resources and structural distortions that guarantee its failure.

 

Look for significant outmigration to commence in 5-10 years once the confiscation party is over and the mismanagement of the oil-bounty has worked its magic.

[Fairweather]

And do you support that level of central control? If it ever comes to that - and I have no doubt it will - I hope our government will support those in Venezuela who remain opposed to such tyranny. And that will surely involve Contra-like groups. Sad, really, because Venezuela doesn't have to go off the deep end to remedy the injustices of its recent past.

[sexual_chocolate]

What he lacks in discipline he'll more than make up for with ineptitude. The path wander a bit, but of the final destination there is absolutely no doubt.

 

Prices communicate real information about the relationship between supply and demand, which are a function of realities that cannot be eliminated. When food is scarce, the price goes up. Artificially suppress the price and you suppress effective demand, which effectively prevents the generation of additional supplies.

 

Regimes such as Chavez's can attempt to control prices, but since they cannot control the realities and contingencies that generate them, this experiment is doomed. Moreover, once they no longer have the information provided by prices to engage in economic calculations, they won't even be able to tell if a particular enterprise is generating outputs that are worth more than their inputs. Is state-run company X generating a profit or loss? Who knows.

 

Expand this example infinitely and you begin to see the process by which the missallocation of resources that characterizes socialism generates the cumulative depletion of productive resources and structural distortions that guarantee its failure.

 

Look for significant outmigration to commence in 5-10 years once the confiscation party is over and the mismanagement of the oil-bounty has worked its magic.

 

is he instituting price controls?

[JayB]

Burned hand teaches best. Spare the rod and you'll have another 50 years worth of implosions inspired by Allendesque fables about how it could have all worked so beautifully if only Uncle Sam had left Hugo alone.

 

Let those who support Chavez stay live with the consequences of their rhetoric, and hope that those who don't have the the sense to emmigrate.

[JayB]

What he lacks in discipline he'll more than make up for with ineptitude. The path wander a bit, but of the final destination there is absolutely no doubt.

 

Prices communicate real information about the relationship between supply and demand, which are a function of realities that cannot be eliminated. When food is scarce, the price goes up. Artificially suppress the price and you suppress effective demand, which effectively prevents the generation of additional supplies.

 

Regimes such as Chavez's can attempt to control prices, but since they cannot control the realities and contingencies that generate them, this experiment is doomed. Moreover, once they no longer have the information provided by prices to engage in economic calculations, they won't even be able to tell if a particular enterprise is generating outputs that are worth more than their inputs. Is state-run company X generating a profit or loss? Who knows.

 

Expand this example infinitely and you begin to see the process by which the missallocation of resources that characterizes socialism generates the cumulative depletion of productive resources and structural distortions that guarantee its failure.

 

Look for significant outmigration to commence in 5-10 years once the confiscation party is over and the mismanagement of the oil-bounty has worked its magic.

 

is he instituting price controls?

 

Yes.

[sexual_chocolate]

And do you support that level of central control? If it ever comes to that - and I have no doubt it will - I hope our government will support those in Venezuela who remain opposed to such tyranny. And that will surely involve Contra-like groups. Sad, really, because Venezuela doesn't have to go off the deep end to remedy the injustices of its recent past.

 

it's funny that you tacitly supported the status quo of venezuela when over 70% there lived in poverty, but when perhaps 15% of the most affluent are affected by remediation measures, you then support an illegal military intervention.

 

what does this say about your allegience to democratic values and the voice of the majority?

[sexual_chocolate]

What he lacks in discipline he'll more than make up for with ineptitude. The path wander a bit, but of the final destination there is absolutely no doubt.

 

Prices communicate real information about the relationship between supply and demand, which are a function of realities that cannot be eliminated. When food is scarce, the price goes up. Artificially suppress the price and you suppress effective demand, which effectively prevents the generation of additional supplies.

 

Regimes such as Chavez's can attempt to control prices, but since they cannot control the realities and contingencies that generate them, this experiment is doomed. Moreover, once they no longer have the information provided by prices to engage in economic calculations, they won't even be able to tell if a particular enterprise is generating outputs that are worth more than their inputs. Is state-run company X generating a profit or loss? Who knows.

 

Expand this example infinitely and you begin to see the process by which the missallocation of resources that characterizes socialism generates the cumulative depletion of productive resources and structural distortions that guarantee its failure.

 

Look for significant outmigration to commence in 5-10 years once the confiscation party is over and the mismanagement of the oil-bounty has worked its magic.

 

is he instituting price controls?

 

Yes.

 

how and where?

[sexual_chocolate]

checked it myself: certain services, food items, etc.