kevbone Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 joseph, i think that was your shortest post. Yours too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 Thanks bill for summing it up! Your the man. PS: keep drinkin, you seem to get smarter by the glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 PS: keep drinkin, you seem to get smarter by the glass. I'm just hoping I answered the question a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 (edited) PS: keep drinkin, you seem to get smarter by the glass. I'm just hoping I answered the question a bit. Beacon tomorrow? Ill be there. You? We can try to find out the meaning of the rating to the slab. %.7 or 5.6, R PG PG 13 or X Edited January 13, 2007 by kevbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Does anybody think showing up, ignoring the question posed, then just directly attacking a person is helping or not? bill, it really isn't about "helping" or not, it's about the behaviour of an overbearing young lad who started posting like mad with idiotic inflammatory opining in every thread, etc etc. i don't really give a damn, but when he starts whining about being mistreated, well, i can't help but crack a smile! i'm sure he might be a nice enough pup in person, but he sure is a bit irritating here, at times (i must qualify). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 but when he starts whining about being mistreated When was I whining bro? Dont you mean I was Winning? Because....Im a winner! As far being an "overbearing young lad who started posting like mad with idiotic inflammatory opining in every thread" Pot..meet kettle,kettle meet...pot! Get my drift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Does anybody think showing up, ignoring the question posed, then just directly attacking a person is helping or not? bill, it really isn't about "helping" or not, it's about the behaviour of an overbearing young lad who started posting like mad with idiotic inflammatory opining in every thread, etc etc. i don't really give a damn, but when he starts whining about being mistreated, well, i can't help but crack a smile! i'm sure he might be a nice enough pup in person, but he sure is a bit irritating here, at times (i must qualify). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 (edited) Sexual chocolate everybody. Edited January 13, 2007 by kevbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 Four solid pages of...... I remember when Petey P. wouldn't have tolerated a half an ounce of this crap in his sacred rock climbing corner. I think things are improving around here. Regarding stars and grades, these are subjective evaluations. I have no problem with a guide book author differentiating between a 5-star Outer Space climb and a 2-star mediocre pitch, especially when hiking is involved. It helps people with limited time find a better climbing experience quickly, especially visiting climbers. I remember one of the first Kramar guides giving low quality ratings to some of my favorite pitches while showering numerous 5.10 slab climbs with 3 or 4 stars, routes that didn't seem special or unique. I remember being irritated by this but later learned to enjoy the fact that routes with few or no stars never seemed to get traffic, and if I happened to like such climbs, I could count on not having to wait for traffic to clear. If you know of a stellar pitch that isn't given glowing reviews in a guide book, consider keeping it private. Develop your own list of "obscure classics" and enjoy the solitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 Develop your own list Yah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 "I remember one of the first Kramar guides giving low quality ratings to some of my favorite pitches while showering numerous 5.10 slab climbs with 3 or 4 stars, routes that didn't seem special or unique. I remember being irritated by this but later learned to enjoy the fact that routes with few or no stars never seemed to get traffic, and if I happened to like such climbs, I could count on not having to wait for traffic to clear. If you know of a stellar pitch that isn't given glowing reviews in a guide book, consider keeping it private. Develop your own list of "obscure classics" and enjoy the solitude. Amen to that. And I agree wholeheartedly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 but when he starts whining about being mistreated When was I whining bro? Dont you mean I was Winning? Because....Im a winner! As far being an "overbearing young lad who started posting like mad with idiotic inflammatory opining in every thread" Pot..meet kettle,kettle meet...pot! Get my drift! first of all, i'm like 69.5 years old, and secondly, what color is the kettle? thought so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Sexual chocolate everybody. i love to sing. what's your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 14, 2007 Author Share Posted January 14, 2007 (edited) Cant we all just get along? Edited January 14, 2007 by kevbone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony_Bentley Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 "I remember one of the first Kramar guides giving low quality ratings to some of my favorite pitches while showering numerous 5.10 slab climbs with 3 or 4 stars, routes that didn't seem special or unique. I remember being irritated by this but later learned to enjoy the fact that routes with few or no stars never seemed to get traffic, and if I happened to like such climbs, I could count on not having to wait for traffic to clear. If you know of a stellar pitch that isn't given glowing reviews in a guide book, consider keeping it private. Develop your own list of "obscure classics" and enjoy the solitude. Amen to that. And I agree wholeheartedly A local hardman and I were having a conversation about this very thing the other day whilst skating on skis in the mountains. We both came to a similar conclusion about the future of rock climbing and the ethics that have (or haven't) dictated the popularity and overall quality of a climbing area. Leavenworth came to mind since we both have spent some time there pulling moss from obscure routes. Now that we have such a strong internet community and since most of the heads that took part in writing the guidebook are part of the internet community, it is probably a good time to giving some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism about each route and pointing out the good, bad and uglies. This will eventually lead to a better guidebook, some chopped bolts, replaced anchors and better maintained trails. I'm pretty much willing to take some time each year and make modifications like replacing anchors or adding/chopping bolts to existing routes if there is a consensus that a route is in need of changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Nelson Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 These are good questions. Unless the system for giving stars is defined clearly in the guidebook, then it will be hard to know what a star means. One would also need to know who gave the rating, or whether it was an average rating by some (given) number of raters. So, instead of stars, maybe a guidebook could have a section at the end in which some people review the area, mentioning which routes they like and why. It would be a bit like reading some film reviews before deciding upon a movie. So, if you liked a route that reviewer "X" recommended, then you can try some of the other routes he or she recommended. The guidebook author has the power to choose the best reviewers, and could make this clear to all possible reviewers: make your reviews concise yet as complete and helpful as possible. This 'reviewer system' is a bit like your 'word of mouth' system, but has the advantage that everybody with the guidebook can get the same recommendations. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pink Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 These are good questions. Unless the system for giving stars is defined clearly in the guidebook, then it will be hard to know what a star means. One would also need to know who gave the rating, or whether it was an average rating by some (given) number of raters. So, instead of stars, maybe a guidebook could have a section at the end in which some people review the area, mentioning which routes they like and why. It would be a bit like reading some film reviews before deciding upon a movie. So, if you liked a route that reviewer "X" recommended, then you can try some of the other routes he or she recommended. The guidebook author has the power to choose the best reviewers, and could make this clear to all possible reviewers: make your reviews concise yet as complete and helpful as possible. This 'reviewer system' is a bit like your 'word of mouth' system, but has the advantage that everybody with the guidebook can get the same recommendations. Jon Jon.....mmmm....your very fist post is here on this thread. Interesting. Stars in destination spots are good for various reasons listed in the other pages. Like time limits in places. “I only have 3 days to climb at Jtree, which has 4000 routes, so I would like to climb only the 5 star climbs”. In this scenario the star system seems to work. In a crag that has 60 routes, that is a little different. When is comes to the crag in question, I am deciding not to add stars to any routes. I don’t want to “direct” climbers to certain climbs. With a small crag, you should be able to just look at the climb and it will call you or it wont. Review of a climb should come after you have climbed it YOURSELF. Screw what a book or movie review says (I never listen to them anyway) and climb it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Nelson Posted January 26, 2007 Share Posted January 26, 2007 I guess that makes sense for a small crag, where one can easily look over most of the rock before starting out. There are so many guidebooks out there, I wonder if any have a 'reviewer system' like that I described. I have a very interesting guidebook for Elbesandstein in the former East Germany. It doesn't include route reviews as far as I can tell, and does not have any stars, but it has various accounts, old handwritten letters, and copies of newspaper clippings. These are mostly to give a historical perspective on the area, but they also give the reader a feeling about some of the routes, which is a little bit like a review. The photographs serve a similar purpose. I like reading reviews of movies and books, as long as the writer is good. It helps to have several reviews to consult, as there are usually several viewpoints. So, if I ever write a guidebook, I might try such a system and see how it goes (probably badly, as most of my efforts go...) Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted January 26, 2007 Author Share Posted January 26, 2007 Thanks for the comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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