The Optimists?

[sexual_chocolate]

better style.

 

What the F....is that supposed to mean. That is entirley your opinion.

 

i do believe the universe makes judgments about style, in a fashion that isn't simple "opinion". if the universe itself has this trait, then certainly by extension we can glean from our knowledge of this characteristic the attributes that are cohesively germane to any particular behaviour we are engaged in or observing.

 

To withhold such a naturalistic tendency is to withhold our creative potential, which would be nothing short of an insult to the universe itself.

 

 

Question: If the someone (anybody) aided a line in Yosemite, then someone else came in and bolted it later, then much later someone freed it, would this even have gotten to this point, because the “retro bolts” would not have been allowed to stay.

 

i think you might be mistaken with your assertion above....

[sexual_chocolate]

thank you; i feel soothed.

 

Try shaving, it sooths me. And that hair bro...you got to do something with that hair.

 

i already said i was soothed. don't need no more.

 

and what's up with the hair comment? i thought this was a friendly exchange?

[corvallisclimb]

FA are respected there. Apparently not at smith. Or maybe the person who retroed it got permission.

 

I like the way you put it there. I guess thats how I think. Since I will never climb 5.14, I know would be pissed if one of my aid FAs got bolted just to be freed...being that it was something I was proud of sans bolts.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Let's simplify this discussion:

 

DFA right, chubby aid-wankers wrong, and the Milli-Vanilli hair extensions adorning Sexy Cocopuff's wizened pate are pure cosmetological genius.

 

End of story.

[corvallisclimb]

DFA please shut the fuck up. Your irrational thoughts are not needed in this disussion. Say something of worthwhile thought and honesty, and it would be greatly accepted mabey even appreciated. For now leave your shit in spray.

[corvallisclimb]

aid climbing is looking pretty rad... heres a nice shot of some aid on a route that should really go free!

 

Sean Plunkett on The Big Chill VI 5.9 A4

[sexual_chocolate]

and the Milli-Vanilli hair extensions adorning Sexy Cocopuff's wizened pate are pure cosmetological genius.

 

End of story.

 

those aren't fucking extensions, a'ight? you guys are ruining my mellow....

[eldiente]

better style.

 

What the F....is that supposed to mean. That is entirley your opinion.

 

 

wasting my time

 

WTF... who's time is being wasted? You are the one responding! Quit wasting my time. Bro.

 

We are having a discusion on bolting old aid lines. Its is not dissing on anybody's accomplishments. Heray for those who have freed it. Question: If the someone (anybody) aided a line in Yosemite, then someone else came in and bolted it later, then much later someone freed it, would this even have gotten to this point, because the “retro bolts” would not have been allowed to stay. FA are respected there. Apparently not at smith. Or maybe the person who retroed it got permission.

 

Wow, that really is a stretch there pal. Lets all cry for how things used to be in the valley... This hypothetical "aid climber" in the valley probably nailed the route so that there is nothing left but pin scars for the rest of us. Sound about right? Man I wish we could all just go back in time where it was all just a matter of whoever gets to the top first gets to make the rules. The Nose was nailed on the FA so should the rest of us nail the route just because that's how FA was done?

 

 

I'm going to bring this style back and carry a huge step ladder with me wherever I go. I'll climb this ladder to the top of many small cliffs and claim the FA and set the rules for that route. My rules are no fixed pro whatsoever no matter how blank the face. If you'd used a ladder like me you wouldn't need any gear or a rope for that matter. Sound silly? Well maybe I'll use a ladder made of webbing instead and call it "aiding."

 

It is great to respect the bold person who does a new route but that isn't the end-all. Maybe there is a better way to do it? Maybe the FAs style of ascent could be improved upon? If so shouldn't we jump at the chance to improve upon the style of the FA? Style is a wide open topic for sure and well beyond the scope of this topic.

 

 

[eldiente]

FA are respected there. Apparently not at smith. Or maybe the person who retroed it got permission.

 

I like the way you put it there. I guess thats how I think. Since I will never climb 5.14, I know would be pissed if one of my aid FAs got bolted just to be freed...being that it was something I was proud of sans bolts.

 

That's your vanity getting in the way.

[MATT_B]

 

I'm going to bring this style back and carry a huge step ladder with me wherever I go. I'll climb this ladder to the top of many small cliffs and claim the FA and set the rules for that route. My rules are no fixed pro whatsoever no matter how blank the face. If you'd used a ladder like me you wouldn't need any gear or a rope for that matter. Sound silly? Well maybe I'll use a ladder made of webbing instead and call it "aiding."

 

 

I would guess you have not done many aid routes, let alone anything hard but who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

 

my $0.02, freeing an aid route good style, adding bolts to an established route bad style.

[G-spotter]

how many bolts were added when freeing routes at Index, eh?

isn't the answer "a whole lot"?

[kevbone]

Lets all cry for how things used to be in the valley...

 

Used to be….with that statement, it is clear you do not climb there. There over all places in the world you NEVER FUCK WITH SOMEONE ELSE’S ROUTE!

 

This hypothetical "aid climber" in the valley probably nailed the route so that there is nothing left but pin scars for the rest of us.

 

What do you think Beth held onto to climb the Optimist? Jugs? No dude….pin scars.

 

Man I wish we could all just go back in time where it was all just a matter of whoever gets to the top first gets to make the rules. The Nose was nailed on the FA so should the rest of us nail the route just because that's how FA was done?

 

YES…..who ever does it first makes the rules. That is how it always has been.

I have a friend who soloed an arête in my crag before I could bolt it. I was pissed at first, but that does not matter. I will ALWAYS respect his accent.

 

I'm going to bring this style back and carry a huge step ladder with me wherever I go. I'll climb this ladder to the top of many small cliffs and claim the FA and set the rules for that route. My rules are no fixed pro whatsoever no matter how blank the face. If you'd used a ladder like me you wouldn't need any gear or a rope for that matter. Sound silly? Well maybe I'll use a ladder made of webbing instead and call it "aiding."

 

Im not even going to comment on this statement…..whoops…just did.

 

It is great to respect the bold person who does a new route but that isn't the end-all. Maybe there is a better way to do it

 

That’s fine…..as long as you don’t add bolts.

 

Edited January 19, 2007 by kevbone

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

DFA please shut the fuck up. Your irrational thoughts are not needed in this disussion. Say something of worthwhile thought and honesty, and it would be greatly accepted mabey even appreciated. For now leave your shit in spray.

 

Ooohhh, you want it bad, don't you, big boy? PM full body shot and free-climbing ray-zoo-may for consideration.

[motomagik]

 

Smith is a zoo by any standard. Mostly it annoys me. I'd rather climb granite splitters.

 

 

Then why do you go?

[high_on_rock]

Couple points for discussion:

1) Wasn't the "FA makes the rules" theory decided by the people who did the FA? Isn't that like letting only old people decide how much social security old people should get? A lot of these people don't even climb anymore, why cannot the people who climb the route decide how the route should be?

2) If we are going to let people who come along and do the route "in better style" change the route, then shouldn't I be able to chop a bolt on a route if I can climb it without clipping that bolt?

Just discussion folks.

[G-spotter]

Hey if you can free The Optimist on lead without clipping the bolts, by all means feel free to chop the ones you don't use.

 

But if winching yourself up on aiders is the only way you can get (it) up, then zip it.

[kevbone]

Wasn't the "FA makes the rules" theory decided by the people who did the FA?

 

No....I beleive it is a consensus over time. You never fuck with someone else’s routes! I mean really, if you don’t like it, go climb something else.

 

 

A lot of these people don't even climb anymore, why cannot the people who climb the route decide how the route should be?

 

No……respect those who came before you. No matter what.

 

then shouldn't I be able to chop a bolt on a route if I can climb it without clipping that bolt?

 

So you are saying all routes that get soloed get chopped? If you think that way…you have a huge fucking ego. It’s all about you!

 

[kevbone]

DFA please shut the fuck up. Your irrational thoughts are not needed in this disussion. Say something of worthwhile thought and honesty, and it would be greatly accepted mabey even appreciated. For now leave your shit in spray.

 

Ooohhh, you want it bad, don't you, big boy? PM full body shot and free-climbing ray-zoo-may for consideration.

 

Good Dr....I agree. I would love to hear your honest thoughts on this subject. But please keep spray in spray. Thanks.

[kevbone]

Hey if you can free The Optimist on lead without clipping the bolts, by all means feel free to chop the ones you don't use.

 

I dont agree. You dont get to chop anything. I have freed tons of shit without clipping all the bolts....I would never think of destroying another person art work...no matter how much it pissed me off or it sucked ass. For the most part...chopping is bad.

[corvallisclimb]

DFA please shut the fuck up. Your irrational thoughts are not needed in this disussion. Say something of worthwhile thought and honesty, and it would be greatly accepted mabey even appreciated. For now leave your shit in spray.

 

Ooohhh, you want it bad, don't you, big boy? PM full body shot and free-climbing ray-zoo-may for consideration.

 

No... Im just sick of seeing your pro-sport, anti aid, irrational rants, in attempts at serious discussions. I don't care how hard you can free that doesn't make you opinion any more just than mine. Like many have said before... Royal Robbins, Fred Becky, Etc.. can't free 5.12 nor never did, but so they as climbers, have a lesser opinion than you or others who might be able to free 5.13?

[eldiente]

Oh this is my favorite argument from the hammer swinging aider. "Were actually creating holds for free climbers by making pin scars." This is a great community service, and the climbers 10,000 years from now well thank you for creating such nice holds... Make that a million years as those scars will still be there.

 

You clearly don't think this is a problem. By your logic we should still be nailing Stovelegs cracks as this is how the first ascent party did it. No of course not, you'd get lynched trying that. Why? Well there is a better way to climb that crack, free or clean aid if you like. I know you'd say it is OK to nail a perfect hand-crack as that's how it was done by the FA, but really that is disrespectful of your fellow climbers and the natural environment as a whole.

 

There is room for discussion on the effects of bolting on the natural environment cause lets face it, a big shinny bolt is a bit of an eye sore at times. I know nothing about this particular route, but looking at it from a low-impact standpoint , the bolts will be far less destructive than repeated nailing of the route on this type of rock.

 

 

This hypothetical "aid climber" in the valley probably nailed the route so that there is nothing left but pin scars for the rest of us.

 

What do you think Beth held onto to climb the Optimist? Jugs? No dude….pin scars.

 

 

[kevbone]

Oh this is my favorite argument from the hammer swinging aider. "Were actually creating holds for free climbers by making pin scars." This is a great community service

 

I never said it was a great community service. Dont put words in my mouth. As far as Stoveleg goes...if you can free it or clean aid it....I think that style of climbing comes first. Now that we both agree on that.....I was trying to say I my opinion you should not bolt an old aid line. If you cant free it with what you have in front of you....go climb something else. That does not give you the right to bolt it.

 

 

 

[sprocket]

Sonnie has freed Cobra Crack (only one of the three hardest trad routes in the world)

 

Just curious, what are the other two? Green Spit? Magic Line?

[kevbone]

Sonnie has freed Cobra Crack (only one of the three hardest trad routes in the world)

 

Just curious, what are the other two? Green Spit? Magic Line?

 

So...does any of these "hard man cracks" have second accents?

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

DFA please shut the fuck up. Your irrational thoughts are not needed in this disussion. Say something of worthwhile thought and honesty, and it would be greatly accepted mabey even appreciated. For now leave your shit in spray.

 

Ooohhh, you want it bad, don't you, big boy? PM full body shot and free-climbing ray-zoo-may for consideration.

 

No... Im just sick of seeing your pro-sport, anti aid, irrational rants, in attempts at serious discussions. I don't care how hard you can free that doesn't make you opinion any more just than mine. Like many have said before... Royal Robbins, Fred Becky, Etc.. can't free 5.12 nor never did, but so they as climbers, have a lesser opinion than you or others who might be able to free 5.13?

 

Oh, you are upset because the great Dr. Flash Amazing has an opinion that differs from yours and he chooses to express that opinion with all the force afforded him by his justifiably colossal ego? Truly, it is just tragic that you have had your sensibilities offended by someone else's opinion, and on the internet no less. Tragic.

 

Unfortunately, even if you strip away the baroque trappings of the Amazing persona, you are still left with the same core opinion, i.e. that a high-standard bolted free climb will always trump some chuffer's beat-out pin-job. Kapish?

 

This has nothing to do with Royal Robbins or Fred Beckey, who have actually advanced the sport. However, if someone bolts up a Robbins aid line in order to free it, so much the better. But the Doctor digresses. It is, as you say, merely an opinion, and as such should not cause harm to your person. DFA does not have a drill, nor does he have the time or motivation to bolt new lines or free pinned-out seams on obscure chosspiles with long, uphill approaches, so your precious benchmarks of etrier artistry are at present safe from this Doctor.

 

Oh, and calling DFA irrational? Please--if you cannot grasp what the Doctor is saying, it is clearly indicative of a deficiency in your reading comprehension, so take a minute to sound out the big words, consult a dictionary, or ask a more competent reader to help you. If it's good enough for George "Nuke-ya-lur" Bush, it's good enough for a hammer-swinging aider-fellator from Beavertown.