joblo7 Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 to climb is heroic by nature. like prayer and meditation. the moment one of does it we all benefit. hillary is a hero and not mallory? or tensing.?or these three great guys? ,
Zeta Male Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 to climb is heroic by nature. like prayer and meditation. the moment one of does it we all benefit. hillary is a hero and not mallory? or tensing.?or these three great guys? , Only to some of the naive masses; not to the wise and experienced.
joblo7 Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 we are witnessing the passing of three heroes. god bless their soul.
ClimbingPanther Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 To Christy and all the newer people feeling a little beat up on: If you have been following this very closely, you'll know that people have been knowingly trying to bog down this conversation and relentlessly asking the same *clearly* disrespectful questions over and over. Most of this has been deleted by moderators. It's unfortunate that a few well-meaning people get caught in the crossfire, but also inevitable. Come around when this sad story is no longer on the national radar and you'll find a much more welcoming tone. I've asked a few dumb questions and made dumb comments, and you have to be prepared to take some ribbing, but it's all in good fun. And good grief, that Dallas news article posted a couple pages back was so full of inaccuracies [no insult intended to the poster], I wonder if they even got that conversation right?! I'm losing faith in the news.
joblo7 Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 fighting is not heroic by nature. only in very very rare instances,
mcmedved Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 Some folks spend way to much time trying to compare one group/person to another group/person. That dialog leads nowhere. Do what you like to do, and don't give a damn what others think of your passion. These guys lived how they wanted. More power to them and their kind.
billbob Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 My girlfriend and I climb Hood in winter every other weekend if conditions indicate moderate weather with no worsening. Certainly this tragedy brings the risks close to home but for us it is part of the deal. What we get out of climbing is truly special and better wordsmiths than I have come up short trying to explain to those not so wanting to venture forth. You just have to be there. I can't wait until next time, I love it that much. There have been great discussions on this site of the risk/rewards, about whether it is preferable to pass away in an old folks home or cancer ward or while climbing. The answers are as individual as we are. The greatest thing about the issue is that we are all free to choose. The few who decide to climb know the risks, have thought about the consequences, and went ahead for reasons of their own. God Bless the mountains and God Bless the mountaineers. May He doubly bless those brave souls, our brothers who come to save us in times of need. KFA PMR
brrp Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 enough speculation... enough with this hero bs... god bless james and god be with the other two.
DocRock Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 to climb is heroic. WOA! To give birth is heroic, to survive cancer is heroic, to have been in a war is heroic...... Let's get some perspective here.
sk Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 you summit every other weekend? hogsback is pretty easy walk up. no big. you can even take the chair lift part way up. i am not sure if that takes you to the true summit... there are severl ways to get up the mountain. from ho hum easy to the trip that Tex and TG took. someone should dig up that TR, Tex is pretty detailed in his writing. it might help some people understand. If i recall there attempt was the north side. any one have better than spotty memory?
ICan'tClimb Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 "get your ass off the couch and start training. if you want to know what a snow cave looks like or what it takes to build one... do it. if you want to climb because you are as passionate about the mountains as the men lost up there right now, then start training... why do you want to know?" I want to know because I will never be physically able to climb a mountain or build a snow cave. I want to know because I admire these men and their story has touched me. I won't PM you because this is a close as I want to get to your temper.
The Hoy Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 How would he dislocate his shoulder in a failed self arrest and yet not get pulled off the mountain with his buddies? This is a good point. Other than an inadequte set-up or failure of pro that initially held, I do not have a good response. More importantly, why would he call out on his cell saying his two buddies had gone for help, if instead they'd all be involved in some self-arrest accident which only he had survived. This discussion is only useful if people don't throw out all of the "probable reality" previously established. It seems that James was incoherent when he made the call, so the meaning of what he said could be interpreted in different ways. Also, I was not really thinking of a traditional self-arrest causing the injury. You make a very good point about not throwing out previously established 'probable reality.' I am struggling to understand what happened and your observations have merit and are welcomed.
sk Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 "get your ass off the couch and start training. if you want to know what a snow cave looks like or what it takes to build one... do it. if you want to climb because you are as passionate about the mountains as the men lost up there right now, then start training... why do you want to know?" I want to know because I will never be physically able to climb a mountain or build a snow cave. I want to know because I admire these men and their story has touched me. I won't PM you because this is a close as I want to get to your temper. temper? you think i am mad??? you dont have to be physically able to climb to get there. there have been MANY differently abeled climbers. from blind to quadrapaligic. don't give me any bull shit about not being able to climb. if there is a will there is a way. you just have to be courageous and determined enough to find it. if you are in jail, start training now and you will be hella strong when you get out.
knelson Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 i am not debating that useful information can be found here. my point is that you can't teach someone about climbing on the internet. if you want to know what Hood looks like get your ass off the couch and start training. if you want to know what a snow cave looks like or what it takes to build one... do it. if you want to climb because you are as passionate about the mountains as the men lost up there right now, then start training and take your own run at it. i intend to. IMHO getting to the bottom of this or as close as can be may save lives. thats why these kinds of stories are published. so we can learn from the mistakes of those who have passed before us. it isn't salacious.we need to know so we can learn and be better prepared. why do you want to know? Muffy... are you OK? There wasn't a single misspelling in that. And well put, if I may chime in. While most of the questions I believe are well meant, the constant what-if scenarios are pointless and probably hurtful to actual family members that wander in here. For them, it probably really doesn't matter. For that reason, I really wish folks would think before engaging their fingers on the keyboard in this thread. Accident threads always get ugly at some point with second guessing, but I've never EVER seen anything like this. The real good information sources left this thread eons ago, so to characterize this site and its normal posters by this thread is a real stretch. What real purpose does this non-stop questioning serve at this point other than to give folks something to talk about around the water cooler? There are no lessons to be learned at this point because the facts aren't know yet. I can't fathom that people need to learn from this RIGHT NOW so they can be properly prepared for their winter adventure next weekend! If you want to learn, then wait until next spring or summer and buy "Accidents In North American Mountaineering" published by the American Alpine Club. Search for it on Amazon... you can buy previous year's copies if you need to learn immediately. Next year there will be a thorough analysis of this whole sorry incident for all to learn from. But for now, why not let the folks doing the invesigating figure out what happened, let the families involved grieve, and use your time wisely by caring about, loving, and spending time with the ones closest to you. That would seem to be an appropriate tribute to these three.
sk Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 oh and that thought process about a will and a way.... that is what i love about climbers. we all have it to one degree or other. elitist, maybe... but we do what other people call crazy or impossible. we live it.
cindy66 Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 Food for thought, ,,, and i do mountian,,,,,,,,,if they all went up NF ,and have never scaled hood before, bad weather breaks out, wouldnt you go back the route that you know, or take a road less traveled?, wishing all you guys the best,and myself,i will be on that mountain in march..................Work soft,Play hard...........
sk Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 i am not debating that useful information can be found here. my point is that you can't teach someone about climbing on the internet. if you want to know what Hood looks like get your ass off the couch and start training. if you want to know what a snow cave looks like or what it takes to build one... do it. if you want to climb because you are as passionate about the mountains as the men lost up there right now, then start training and take your own run at it. i intend to. IMHO getting to the bottom of this or as close as can be may save lives. thats why these kinds of stories are published. so we can learn from the mistakes of those who have passed before us. it isn't salacious.we need to know so we can learn and be better prepared. why do you want to know? Muffy... are you OK? There wasn't a single misspelling in that. And well put, if I may chime in. While most of the questions I believe are well meant, the constant what-if scenarios are pointless and probably hurtful to actual family members that wander in here. For them, it probably really doesn't matter. For that reason, I really wish folks would think before engaging their fingers on the keyboard in this thread. Accident threads always get ugly at some point with second guessing, but I've never EVER seen anything like this. The real good information sources left this thread eons ago, so to characterize this site and its normal posters by this thread is a real stretch. What real purpose does this non-stop questioning serve at this point other than to give folks something to talk about around the water cooler? There are no lessons to be learned at this point because the facts aren't know yet. I can't fathom that people need to learn from this RIGHT NOW so they can be properly prepared for their winter adventure next weekend! If you want to learn, then wait until next spring or summer and buy "Accidents In North American Mountaineering" published by the American Alpine Club. Search for it on Amazon... you can buy previous year's copies if you need to learn immediately. Next year there will be a thorough analysis of this whole sorry incident for all to learn from. But for now, why not let the folks doing the invesigating figure out what happened, let the families involved grieve, and use your time wisely by caring about, loving, and spending time with the ones closest to you. That would seem to be an appropriate tribute to these three. why thank you for noticing my improvement *blush* i write every day for a living now and it has forced me to be more aware. well said right back at you!!!
LHwildcats76 Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 This clarifies a lot. Thanks for the information. Nice photos Mike! Rather not add anything to this than necessary but there seems to be some confusion. For the record, the "Y" cable photo on all those news sites is just some steel cable that tied down the old summit shack (long-since destroyed). Here's the media photo (rotated for some reason): (see iain's photos earlier in thread) Here's the actual climber's anchor (webbing and pickets), with their steps leading to it: (see iain's photos earlier in thread) Two different things. Do not use this photo w/o talking to me. I had to page back through every page to find these photos, finally finding them on page 3. The second one just shows the tracks. The footprints are sideways, sloping slightly down and to the right. Other photos I've seen show them going straight up, assuming the camera was right side up. I don't know which way is up on this one, and I don't see an anchor, webbing, gear, or anything else except maybe some rocks sticking through the snow, and the photographers hand in the way on the right side of the pic. What's the deal? As for the Y shaped photo, the first one, all I can say is, you've absolutely positively have to be kidding me, right? The sheriff himself referred to that photo as being something the climbers made, and that he himself was wondering why the media had turned it sideways when the Y in actuality was pointing straight downward. This is crazy.
mrd Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 We may never know what happened, or why. But the fact remains that it is unlikely, if Mr. James cared for these two men, and their families (as it appears), he would not have provided information to his wife and his son. There would not be any rational reason to withhold critical information. It is more likely that he would have advised his family, identified his position and requested that his family contact the appropriate authorities. And what was the reality? One week! If searchers went up before last weekend who knows how many bodies we would have to count. It took two active days (plus extra time to prepare) in a comparably perfect weather conditions to get to the cave. Are you implying that Kelly was irresponsible and would not care about other people lives? He was a mountaineer and knew that such possibility existed.
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 ...and the photographers hand in the way on the right side of the pic. That isn't a hand, it's part of an airplane. Now will you please shut up and stop posting on this website?
mtn_mouse Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 What real purpose does this non-stop questioning serve at this point other than to give folks something to talk about around the water cooler? Well put. The incessant ad nauseum speculation upon speculation is so absurd that many posters are asking questions that have already been answered by rescuers that post here, or they counter the facts from a rescuer with their own crazy speculation. Give it a rest. Express you sympathy to the family, post facts as they are appropriate, but please take your endless speculation to fox news or some other soap opera.
luzi3 Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 I am very grateful to be able to come here and lurk and learn. There was so much I didn't understand (and still don't) about mountain climbing, the logistics of it all, the equipment needed, the passion behind it. I have learned so much here. I head read here and searched google for things I was unfamiliar with (such as bivy gear - had never heard of that!). This forum could be a closed forum with access only to members who are climbers, but I feel fortunate that I have gotten to take a glimpse into your world. And that now I have an understanding of why you climb and why the three Mt Hood climbers were up there. What a feeling that must be. And I must say, I feel inspired too. What good is sitting in my home office all day every day, eating dinner, watching TV and going to bed, and doing it all again tomorrow? For the rest of my life? Until I die? Better to find something you love, and DO it. Just like those three climbers and so many of you here are doing.
Zeta Male Posted December 20, 2006 Posted December 20, 2006 "get your ass off the couch and start training. if you want to know what a snow cave looks like or what it takes to build one... do it. if you want to climb because you are as passionate about the mountains as the men lost up there right now, then start training... why do you want to know?" I want to know because I will never be physically able to climb a mountain or build a snow cave. I want to know because I admire these men and their story has touched me. I won't PM you because this is a close as I want to get to your temper. temper? you think i am mad??? you dont have to be physically able to climb to get there. there have been MANY differently abeled climbers. from blind to quadrapaligic. don't give me any bull shit about not being able to climb. if there is a will there is a way. you just have to be courageous and determined enough to find it. if you are in jail, start training now and you will be hella strong when you get out. This is thoroughly asinine. I'm outta here.
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