This is TOO much!

[tvashtarkatena]

If this is, indeed, a war of words, then you have achieved victory through sheer industrial output.

[ClimbingPanther]

Arch, you really took the "Subject" line to heart, eh?

I would get fired for reading books at work if I read your whole reply now, but I'll take a look on my own time. I appreciate what I for now assume is a thoughtful response though!

[archenemy]

It might be challenging for a Catholic to be able to have to rely on "what God says" since they believe that direct communication with God is not possible for the layman--hence the need for priests. Forgive the oversimplification here--I already took up all my allotted space with the Morality crap I posted above.

[underworld]

since they believe that direct communication with God is not possible for the layman--hence the need for priests.

 

wrong

 

prayer is direct communication with god.

[JayB]

I don't think that it's necessarily a case that one side is completely neutral with respect to the manner in which people conduct their private lives. You may feel like gun control, for example, is a completely morally neutral issue - but there are plenty of people who feel as though this is a massive intrusion into their private lives. You may not agree with them on this one, but I think it's easy to assume that because a particular law or policy is in synch with your own viewpoint, it is by default un-intrusive and morally neutral.

 

Actually, I don't subscribe to any of your assertions. And your example of gun control, which I personally couldn't give a damn about, is dated. The Democrats in general have largely abandoned that as an issue out of shear necessity.

 

Your confuse the actual definition of terms like "moral values" with its connotative meaning in the public sphere. When that term is used in public, political speech, it connotes a specific agenda put forth by the religious right.

 

I object to intrusions on privacy and personal choice from the left as well. As conservatives in power have become more radical, however, they are fewer and farther between these days.

 

Simply put, I believe government should be neutral regarding religion, as stated in the constitution. I believe that everyone should have an equal right to marry whom they choose. I believe that the government should stay out of our private lives and personal choices. The religious right does not believe these things, and therein lies my objection.

 

And BTW, for those who are logically challenged, stating that non-christians object to a religious right agenda does not imply anything at all about christians who do not fall into that category.

 

Dated or not, gun control is an issue that has moral/conviction-based dimensions for both sides.

 

As far as "the equal right to marry whomever they choose," is concerned - as someone else said that is a fairly vast oversimplification that virtually no one would support in practice. While everyone would restrict the right to marry to consenting adults, no one is out there campaigning for a complete libertarian free for all. I think that all gay people want is for the government to extend the rights that are associated with a male-female union consisting of two persons to be extended to legal unions of any two consenting adults. Ask many of them whether or not they'd like to include polygamy in the realm of legal relationships that they'd like to have elevated to the same status, and they'd probably tell you that they are actually fine with the government denying groups of 3, 4, 5, 6, or 26 consenting adults the marital rights that they want for themselves. There are a bunch of practical reasons for this, but I would imagine that a significant number of gay couples who want the right to marry would also express some moral reservations about the government sanctioning martial arrangements like those that prevail in Colorado City, Arizona.

[archenemy]

That is neither one of the distinctive beliefs of the Catholic Church nor is it one of the Sacraments.

[ericb]

The difference here is that the majority of Americans agree that gays should have a right to marry.

 

AE....can you please point my to the poll/study you are referring to? I haven't seen it, and find it interesting that in the cases where Americans have actually voted, this has not been the case.

[underworld]

sacrements?? what is that have to do with this?

 

well, either way - i was taught that prayer is direct communication with god. i believe this to be the common thought of catholics.

 

take the 'our father'. it is all 1st and 2nd person words in that prayer.

[JayB]

One of the things that I like about the Catholic Church is that they have no problem saying "Sorry - that actually isn't a valid interpretation of the Bible." This is not because I think that they are correct, but it least it corrals irrationality into channels defined by tradition, which puts a brake or two on the proliferation of Branch Dividians, etc.

[tvashtarkatena]

It might be challenging for a Catholic to be able to have to rely on "what God says" since they believe that direct communication with God is not possible for the layman--hence the need for priests.

 

Unless you're actually trained in a given religion, it's probably best to stick to what you know about other religions from their public record.

 

Catholic priests, in addition to serving as pastors, administer sacraments such as baptism, marriage, etc. They do not serve as a middlemen between practitioners and god, particularly regarding prayer.

Edited November 6, 2006 by tvashtarkatena

[archenemy]

It might be challenging for a Catholic to be able to have to rely on "what God says" since they believe that direct communication with God is not possible for the layman--hence the need for priests.

 

Unless you're actually trained in a given religion, it's probably best to stick to what you know about other religions from their public record.

 

Catholic priests, in addition to serving as pastors, administer sacraments such as baptism, marriage, etc. They do not serve as a middlemen between practitioners and god.

You do not know what religion I was "trained" in.

 

Latria, hyperdulia, and dulia are not considered personal communications as they do not originate from the individual--they are learned and passed on.

[archenemy]

The difference here is that the majority of Americans agree that gays should have a right to marry.

 

AE....can you please point my to the poll/study you are referring to? I haven't seen it, and find it interesting that in the cases where Americans have actually voted, this has not been the case.

It was not a vote, it was a poll in Newsweek. However, I have read that an albeit slim majority of Americans are OK with gay unions in a number of publications. I wish I had a better memory--but I read so much that I simply cannot remember exactly where I read everything. Plus, I'm old.

[tvashtarkatena]

If you were raised catholic, you must not have been paying much attention...

[archenemy]

Unlike all the other rapt children?

[archenemy]

I think my use of the word "communication" was wrong--too broad. I don't know what the word is for communication directly from God. In other words, having to rely on a priest as a middleman for absolution or even on the Virgin Mary as a petitioner to Christ is a little bit difficult for me. I have nothing against the Catholic Church, just as I have nothing against any organized or disorganzed religion in general. But it's the little things that make me ask questions. That might seem offensive and sacraligious to some--and they may be right. But I can't help but to question these things anyway.

[tvashtarkatena]

As far as "the equal right to marry whomever they choose," is concerned - as someone else said that is a fairly vast oversimplification that virtually no one would support in practice. While everyone would restrict the right to marry to consenting adults, no one is out there campaigning for a complete libertarian free for all. I think that all gay people want is for the government to extend the rights that are associated with a male-female union consisting of two persons to be extended to legal unions of any two consenting adults. Ask many of them whether or not they'd like to include polygamy in the realm of legal relationships that they'd like to have elevated to the same status, and they'd probably tell you that they are actually fine with the government denying groups of 3, 4, 5, 6, or 26 consenting adults the marital rights that they want for themselves. There are a bunch of practical reasons for this,

 

Uh...we're not discussing polygamy. That is a completely different subject with different social and legal implications. We also not discussing man-on-dog marriage, just in case that should come up.

 

I think you'll find over time that most Americans will support gay marriage, as they did interracial marriage. The arguments against the latter were nearly identical. As for whether a technical majority do now, if not, it is very close, and certainly growing.

[tvashtarkatena]

I don't know what the word is for communication directly from God. In other words, having to rely on a priest as a middleman for absolution or even on the Virgin Mary as a petitioner to Christ is a little bit difficult for me.

 

Communication directly to God is called prayer. Communication directly from God is called psychosis.

Catholics should consider themselves lucky to have priests...some evangelical churches require confession in front of the entire congregation.

 

Look, I have trouble with the concept of a God at all, so you're preaching to the choir.

Edited November 6, 2006 by tvashtarkatena

[archenemy]

Communication directly from God is called psychosis.

Is that a fact? Here we differ.

[tvashtarkatena]

Five percent of the U.S. population is atheist. I'm well used to differing.

 

Practically nothing is a fact.

Edited November 6, 2006 by tvashtarkatena

[archenemy]

I don't know anyone who hasn't questioned the existance of God.

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh, I have. I used to be a true believer all the way. I'm not anymore. Not for everybody, but it works for me.

Edited November 6, 2006 by tvashtarkatena

[archenemy]

That's what matters.

[minx]

I didn't realize that atheists made up 5% of the population. I figured that the number would be smaller. interesting.

[underworld]

i could see 5% agnostic.

[ericb]

The difference here is that the majority of Americans agree that gays should have a right to marry.

 

AE....can you please point my to the poll/study you are referring to? I haven't seen it, and find it interesting that in the cases where Americans have actually voted, this has not been the case.

It was not a vote, it was a poll in Newsweek. However, I have read that an albeit slim majority of Americans are OK with gay unions in a number of publications. I wish I had a better memory--but I read so much that I simply cannot remember exactly where I read everything. Plus, I'm old.

 

Polls

The most recent national poll on same-sex marriage in the United States was conducted in June 2006 by ABC News. The poll found that the majority (58%) of Americans remained opposed to same-sex marriages, while the minority (36%) support them. However, on the question of a constitutional amendment, more are now opposed than for it. The majority (51%) of Americans say the issue should be left for the states to decide, while 43% would agree with amending the Constitution.[17]

 

Prior to this poll, Gallup conducted a poll on the issue through May 2006. The poll found opposition to same-sex marriage had fallen slightly, as other polls found a sharper dip. In the poll, when asked if marriages between homosexuals should be recognized by law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages, 58% (down 1 point from Aug 2005, and 9 points from March 1996) of Americans responded that they should not be recognized. 39% (up 2 points from Aug 2005, and 12 points from 1996) felt same-sex marriages should be recognized by law. If "homosexuals" is replaced with "same-sex couples", 42% back same-sex marriage while 56% oppose it.

 

A similar poll conducted in March of 2006, a Princeton Survey Research Associates / Pew Research Center poll concluded 39% of Americans support same-sex marriage, while 51% oppose it, and 10% were undecided. In December 2004, a poll by the same company found 61% of Americans opposed - with 38% "strongly opposed". Now, less than 2 years later, just 23% are "strongly opposed". However, an identical poll taken by the same group in June 2006 found a rise in those opposed to same-sex marriage, with 56% disapproving of the practice.

 

The most recent poll prior to this also showed opposition to gay marriages had fallen. An Opinion Dynamics / Fox News poll released April 06th of 2006. According to this poll, 55% of Americans oppose same-sex marriage, 33% support it, and 11% are unsure of where they stand.