Clipping biners

[RuMR]

CATTURDEAT says:

i train by beating off alternately with both hands.

Edited September 22, 2006 by RuMR

[catbirdseat]

i just started leading sport and it seems way easier to clip the biner from outside in. so say i am clipping on my right side, i reach out with my right hand and clip the biner so that as it lies flat the gate is facing me. so CBS, you are saying this is a problem? now that i think about it it seem that as i climb up the whole QD could get pulled up rotating the biner in the bolt so that the gate may become loaded as it is pulled up and towards me to the right *(assuming i climb a straight line up to the right) is that what you are worried about? cause clipping so the biner faces out from the bolt hen hanging flat can be abitch sometimes. what are the thoughts?

I can't follow exactly what you are trying to say.

[Cobra_Commander]

It's safer to just make the clip and not worry about this irrelevant stuff, rather than sitting there cogitating about what should face where while getting tired, while exposed to the most risk encountered on a sport climb. Honestly, I don't know how people around here get up anything worrying about this irrelevant crap.

[catbirdseat]

If you are starting out learning something new, it is as easy to learn it one way as it is the other. So if one method has even an infinitesimal safety advantage, you might was well learn it this way. A large number of small safety advances can add up.

 

You old timers, don't worry about it.

Edited September 22, 2006 by catbirdseat

[Cobra_Commander]

Yes, but I don't drive at 45mph all the way to a climb because of an infinitesimal safety advantage either. Some things are just ridiculous. There are so many other things that are more important.

 

Don't backclip, don't z-clip, maybe try to keep your gates facing away from the general direction of climbing, but that's all that's needed. Clogging new climbers' minds with this irrelevance is a disservice.

[catbirdseat]

The discussion started out about which way the biners should face on the draw. This is a "set it and forget it" issue.

[Cobra_Commander]

and I'm saying that it just doesn't matter. I can't believe it's still being discussed.

 

Honestly I don't know how someone interested in science can make these claims w/o a set of data. Or perhaps even one point of data.

 

I happen to like having my gates face the same way but I'm not going to hold it against the thousands of people who do it the other way.

[catbirdseat]

There are lots of things we do that don't have good data to back them up.

[Cobra_Commander]

Yes but when you are just talking out of your ass, it seems appropriate to call it out.

[counterfeitfake]

There are lots of things we do that don't have good data to back them up.

 

Yeah. Like not walking under ladders and being afraid of black cats.

 

Lots of things are counterintuitive. How can you say there is any safety advantage to your way? Just because it looks like it?

 

Honestly I can't even tell what the hell you guys are talking about. Stiff quickdraws in bolts? Floppy draws in trad gear? ROTATE THE TOP SIDE LEFTWISE!

[scrambled_legs]

You should practice clipping the rope in both from right and left using either hand until you can do it quickly and efficiently no matter which way the gate faces.

 

I must be explaining this wrong. I don't have a problem clipping the draw quickly either way.

 

When you grab a draw from your waste and clip it with the gate facing in or out, you expect the bottom biner to be facing a certain way. If you rack your draws gates opposite then you expect it to be opposite, if you rack the same then you expect it to be the same.

 

Same with clipping the gear gate in or out. If you go to grab it, you expect it to be a certain way. When they're mixed matched then you either have to look or feel to see which way the gate is facing.

 

I can do it quick either way and it was just the matter of having to think, look or feel to see which way the bottom gate is facing or which way the gate is facing that I'm about to unclip on the rack. If it is always racked the same way, you can clip the draws without thinking which way the bottom gate is facing and grab the gear from your rack a lot quicker.

[mattp]

I agree with those who say it is not all that important, but in my opinion it is just plain obnoxious to carry on about how stupid the question is, and to turn this thread into an argument about whether or not it is a good question.

 

Personally, I prefer having them both face the same way. I like this mostly because I have just grown used to it after being told, thirty years ago, that you want to avoid having carabiner gates face the rock and it is more often the case that both ends of the draw are going to be in the same vertical corner then it is that they might be in corners facing opposite directions. But for me this is as much a left-over practice from older ideas in trad climbing than based on any real consideration of sport climbing realities.

 

The post about how it is easier to clip with the gate facing toward the climber has some merit. Assuming that most of the time you are not thereafter going to traverse past that bolt to climb on the far side of it, it might -more often than not - be better to have the 'biners facing opposite directions.

 

I'm sure there are fifty arguments either way, and I would not be surprised if Dru is correct that there is not really a "correct" way.

 

Call me dumb, but I think it is rude to pile on the original post or attempts to actually answer the question.

[ivan]

of all the threads i've read today, this is one of them

[ketch]

To put this slightly closer to on track. The normal that I follow is that when I do anything multi-pitch When transfering gear I put it on my partners rack the way they want it. That is how to solve the mixed rack challenge that you mentioned. As to the opposed or same I prefer same but have been known to change as required.

[scrambled_legs]

Judging by the survey, there is no "normal," So I'll just keep the draws the way I had them. This is what I was wondering and not trying to find out if there is a right or wrong way.

[scrambled_legs]

It doesn't matter so your questions are irrelevant. It's like toilet paper rolling from the front or back.

The majority of people roll over the front. It's good to know because if you have no end hanging out you spin it from the top down and it'll appear. If there was no norm, then you'd have to slowly spin it until you found the end and pick it off, or spin it both ways until it appeared.

Kinda like grabbing gear from a rack or placing a draw and knowing which way the bottom one is facing by the the direction the top one is facing.

[chucK]

With respect to clipping gear to the harness: I clip my own damn gear to my own damn harness!!! I don't want some fruitcake climber rousting around down there .

 

But seriously folks... when clipping to harnesses, or more pertinently, to gear slings, one should always clip with the gates facing out. That is way that I do it. Anybody who does it any other way is incorrect and an inconvenience to me.

 

However, *sigh* , we all know the world is not perfect and I must often climb with people who are incorrect in their perceptions as to the proper gear-clipping orientation. Here is what I do to fight against the tide of mediocrity: Before setting out on my lead, I quickly check each piece clipped to the gear sling and turn any errant biners around to the correct orientation (that is facing out, by the way, if you missed it before). This sometimes takes in excess of 15 seconds, but usually not.

 

With respect to which way the quickdraw biners face, I subscribe to not using those deadly dogbone draws! Floppy, draws that allow you to orient the biner to whatever direction you want in a heartbeat or two are the way to go. If you are climbing with those deathtrap draws with the elastic thingy holding the biner rigid, you are inevitably going to be faced with using some that have the biners in the INCORRECT orientation; because, as well all know, 98% of people don't know what the fuck they are doing.

 

When climbing with one of these imperfect individuals, if the draws are rigid, you're stuck. No way out. Might as well be soloing. So, in summary, do not using these deadly dogbone draws please. Thank you.

[archenemy]

It doesn't matter so your questions are irrelevant. It's like toilet paper rolling from the front or back.

The majority of people roll over the front. It's good to know because if you have no end hanging out you spin it from the top down and it'll appear. If there was no norm, then you'd have to slowly spin it until you found the end and pick it off, or spin it both ways until it appeared.

I read in Reader's Digest that 31% of people roll from the back. I don't know why I never forgot that useless statistic, but I am glad I get to call it up now.

[chucK]

With respect to TP orientation, it does seem more common and useful to have it rolling over the top.

 

However, new and expectant parents take note: With small children around, the preferred orientation is to have the TP rolling out the back. Little kids like to spin the roll quickly just for whatever reason little kids do stuff (probably same thing that causes them to flick lights on and off and reprogram your VCR). Usually the kids spin the roll from the top down. If you have the TP set in the top down orientation, you are left with a BF mess, and/or a large TP bill, and often end up yelling at sweet little sugarkins (and feeling terrible later). With the out-the-bottom orientation, the kid just gets to have fun and noone gets hurt.

[ketch]

Thanks Chuck, I may have to adopt a new sig.

 

"Just spin the toilet paper and no one gets hurt."

[Cobra_Commander]

Just to be clear, I was directing all my responses to catbirdseat and not scrambled_legs.

 

Certainly people should be comfortable asking any questions at all on here, and I hope I didn't come across otherwise.

 

I dislike absolutes when there are none in this case, and cbs seemed to be indicating someone was DEAD WRONG if they did it a certain way.

[ivan]

how about this, i have on several occasions had gear come unclipped from my harness while climbing and thus join the Great Cosmic Booty Pool - i suppose this happened b/c i somehow contorted myself into a position that opened the gate and shifted the whole piece enough for everything, gear and biner to fall- i've seen this happent o several other folks too - would this kinda shit not happen if i clipped the other way? (usually have the gate facing out and at the top as it feels most natural thataways)

[mattp]

Ivan, I have had that happen almost exclusively with wire gate carabiners, with an aggressive "nose" next to the wire gate opening, and mostly with ice screws or with a stiff-stemmed gizmo device like a TCU.

 

It mostly happens at a belay where the piece of gear gets pushed onto something and therefore pushes back against the gate, and if you play with one you can easily see the mechanism for this. I bet turning them around WOULD reduce this unfortunate occurence.

 

Meanwhile, I fear that these same 'biners may be more likely to unclip the lead rope if you clip in the dreaded gate-toward-travel orientation than might some other type of 'biner.

[scrambled_legs]

fuck...you guys are morons...but i have to say that there was one case where i had a draw come completely unclipped w/o a fall once for me...the roof out on Kings of Rap has a bolt in the middle of the wall as you traverse out...the quickdraw "rolled" over the top of the bolt (a metolius ring bolt) and unclipped itself from just the pull of the rope as i pulled out and around the roof into the jug...This actually occurred *often* enough that its pretty well known with old generation smiff climbers. You can easily replicate it with those bolts at smith. Modern hangers are sloped enough that this is pretty impossible (unlikely) to happen.

 

hhahahahaa...

 

Summarized: "Fuck you guys are morons"... "oh the other day I clipped a draw and for some reason it came undone and if I hadn't pulled the roof I woulda been hurting"... "I wonder why it did that???"... "I can't believe you guys are sitting here talking about this useless bullshit!"

 

hahahaahah... spoken like a true moron.

 

RumR, I think about things a lot while I'm on the ground and bored shitless at work... kinda like today. Catbirdseat might have a point. It seems to make common sense and there is no argument for clipping the other way so seeing as it makes no real difference, why not do it.

 

After shooting the shit with a guide one day he mentioned that solid gate biners fail more regularly than wire gates and why. I started buying wire gates. I still use my solid gates but if there is evidence showing the other one's possibly better, why not do it. Its not any worse and it sure beats ending up wondering why the hell my draw unclipped itself.

 

Did you ever read that testing session that the guys did with ice pro? I think it was in How to climb Ice. In their conclusions they said that they were shocked how many biners failed well under their ratings. It was left unexplained and when the guide showed me how little forced opened the gate on a solid gate biner, I thought that was a pretty good possibility why. I'm not about to be the test subject so I switched to buying wire gates even though there was no accident report that I knew of.

[mattp]

Off topic slightly, but Mr. Legs I can tell you I'd be very unhappy with your rack if it consisted entirely of the "typical" wiregates with a very aggressive hook and sharp "nose" on the gate opening. They catch on stuff and are a damn nuisance to get wired stoppers out of and can even be a pain when unclipping a tripled runner yet they unclip themselves when racked on your harness and I wonder if the lead rope may too unclip itself some time. Further don't work for a 'biner break.

 

I'd be a lot more uncomfortable with a rack entirely of these than I would with a rack where the guy had the draws clipped backwards - though I could deal with it if my partner said they were uncomfortable with what I have.