un-bolting ethics thread

[mattp]

OffWhite - do you really think that either the rampant bolt placers or the rabid bolt choppers care one little bit about everyone's access or protecting the rock? They only care about personal statements. So all the purported 'rational agreement' and hand holding and Kumbaya in the world doesn't make much difference.

 

I'd say at least some of those you refer to - on both sides - actually DO care, Dru. I'd also say that sometimes we have had some good discussions and I've even learned a thing or two on cc.com. I agree if you are saying that much of the time we seem to work ourselves into a frenzy with no real progress, though, and the conflict/bolt wars/name calling often do more harm than good.

[billcoe]

Interesting statement Dru.

 

Who cares what other people think. The freedom to place bolts is the freedom to remove them, and vice versa. Place, chop, place, chop, it's like one of those Russian drinking games where you have a shot of vodka and then slap your opponent in the face, and the last man standing wins. Eventually either the chopper gives up and the bolts remain or the bolter gives up and the bolts are gone. You can talk circles around it but all the talk in the world will not deter individuals with strong opinions from acting.

 

Dru, thank you for explaining the RC.com version of this question.

 

 

I do hear your arguement a lot as well for other people, that is, if someone thinks they can just stick in a bolt any particular place cause they want two, (established route where there were none) then it is as acceptable or even more so, your right to pull it if you want two for the same reason.

 

Like you, I don't think all the jawing will change people opinions on this. People will do what they want two do and justify it later. So why even talk about it? No one will change their opinion unless it's maybe just some Noob Gym climber who doesn't know any better learning from some of the elders what proper protocal is on this I guess.

 

As far as having Freedom goes, I thought you were Canadian and still kissing the Queens ass? So theoretically she should be telling you where two put the bolts or when two pull them out.

[G-spotter]

"Climbing is anarchy" - Messner

[chris]

I think this conversation overlaps - a lot - with re- and retro-bolting. Often times, my issues are the same.

 

Here are my considerations for removing bolts:

1. Are they dangerous? Old, rusted, etc.? Then they get the chop and usually replaced.

2. Will removing them scar the rock further? This is LNT applied to the vertical. I know of one crag that I won't chop a squeeze-job because I don't think I can keep from damaging the rock further.

3. Were they placed by the FA team, or are they sanctioned by the FA team? If the FA team is unreachable, I ask the local community for an opinion.

4. Is there adequate traditional protection nearby that can substitute? Sometimes the FA team had good reason for not using that crack, so I like to try to ask them in consideration #3.

 

This is just what I consider when removing or adding bolts...

 

Oh, and about the tuning fork. Let me ask around. It was my understanding that it would work, but you're right about 5-piece bolts. I'll ask a few people wiser and with more experience and let you know what I hear...

[northwest_dad]

I think that what it boils down to is that bolt removal is ok when you justify it in your own head. In other words, you think that you know more than the person who placed it.

I must say though, why stop there? Why not just fall trees over roads you don't think should exist in the forest? What about super crazy freesoloists, they could chop all they wanted because they don't think any are necessary (except for the filmers to hang from).

It's a wierd debate but I don't think chopping someones bolts really does any good because they will probably just put some more in, thus scarring even more rock and causing more debates.

[Drederek]

I think what it boils down to is who is the bigger dick? The person who put in unnecessary bolts or the person who chops the bolts deemed necessary by the FA? Climbing is anarchy so how can we tell? Maybe someone can help me with this quote at the end of animal farm "As they sat at the table one couldn't tell the men from the pigs or the the pigs from the men" Sorry George.

[archenemy]

That's easy to answer.

*I* have the bigger dick.

[RocNoggin]

well then chop, chop...not on your dick but the bolts...