keep illegals legal?? WTF?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

fact is people have been enslaving, subjugating and murdering eachother for centuries. not just whites against blacks in one short span of history.

 

Oh, well, then we should certainly ignore the possibility that this despicable practice may have had any negative impact on social conditions in our country.

 

ignore it? no way. but take a broader view of history, and ask yourself some tough questions about humanity in general. American slavery is by no means a singularity in the course of history. and there is slavery today (e.g. Sudan) - does that bother you, or touch upon your conscience? how does that impact the "social conditions" of the world today?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

so, getting back on topic here:

 

1) illegal aliens are just that. no need to invent euphemisms

2) employers who hire illegals are also outside the law. we pay lip service to enforcing these particular laws - just as we do regarding illegal aliens

 

I would like to see the following occur:

1) enforce all employment regulations

a) illegal aliens must have a worker visa,

b) illegal aliens must pay taxes on the same progressive tax system as the rest of us

c) the same laws on wages and benefits and workers rights apply to illegal aliens as to everyone else

d) the same social benefits are awarded to taxpaying illegals as the rest of us

e) we enforce all this at the EMPLOYER level.

 

forget building walls, and deporting people and all that crap. Just enforce registering workers with permits and (alas) fund a bureaucracy with inspectors/agents to audit industries that have a large number of illegals and punish companies that violate the law. We all know the prominent industries: agriculture, construction, etc. All right, certain jobs (nannies) would be hard to track down individual employers to enforce the rules, but certainly we could require that if you take a tax break for day care, or whatever, that you provide documentation (a SSN or worker visa number) for the person doing the work for you.

 

I'd be interested if this changes anything on the balance sheet though (tax income versus expenditure on services, cost of certains goods and services). At least it would be honest.

[Jim]

so, getting back on topic here:

 

1) illegal aliens are just that. no need to invent euphemisms

2) employers who hire illegals are also outside the law. we pay lip service to enforcing these particular laws - just as we do regarding illegal aliens

 

I would like to see the following occur:

1) enforce all employment regulations

a) illegal aliens must have a worker visa,

b) illegal aliens must pay taxes on the same progressive tax system as the rest of us

c) the same laws on wages and benefits and workers rights apply to illegal aliens as to everyone else

d) the same social benefits are awarded to taxpaying illegals as the rest of us

e) we enforce all this at the EMPLOYER level.

 

 

Actually not a bad idea. The problem as usual, is politics. A couple years ago the Justice Dept. started doing this in Iowa in response to requests from local jurisdictions. The meat packing plants were full of illegal Mexicans and there was some issues of packing familes into apartments and run down houses, etc. So - Justices starts cracking down on the meat packers, they immediately go run to their senators and Sen. Grassley goes and pounds on the Justice Dept. to back off, saying it will ruin the economy, blah, blah, blah, and they do.

 

So now it's ironic to hear some of Grassley's comments on the issue.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Jim

[chris]

As I understand things, many illegals have forged visas, social security numbers, etc. So when they are hired, the employers are withholding taxes - but the illegal worker has no way to claim any benefits.

 

If this is true - how do we hold the EMPLOYER accountable? If he looks at the required paperwork (birth certificate, social security card, driver's license, work visa). And its all in order, what can we expect him to do? Report suspicions?

 

Is this right? Is it fair? (They're not the same thing)

[KaskadskyjKozak]

As I understand things, many illegals have forged visas, social security numbers, etc. So when they are hired, the employers are withholding taxes - but the illegal worker has no way to claim any benefits.

 

If this is true - how do we hold the EMPLOYER accountable? If he looks at the required paperwork (birth certificate, social security card, driver's license, work visa). And its all in order, what can we expect him to do? Report suspicions?

 

Is this right? Is it fair? (They're not the same thing)

 

Employers have to take payroll deductions and send them to the federal gov't using these SSNs. The federal gov't knows what SSNs are valid or not (i.e. officially issued to a living person)

 

Every job I have ever worked has required me to provide a SSN on day 1. It would easy to enforce a "validation" mechanism for this number if it is not already done.

[chris]

I don't think its that easy - I'm aware of an black market for Soc Sec ID's - with that and a birth certificate its pretty easy to get a driver's license. Also, instead of Soc Sec # you can also give a student or work visa (student visa allows a limited amount of work per week, I think 20 hours).

 

But this is just my understanding of things, and I know I can be completey messed up...

 

OK, back to class...

[underworld]

how about this: allow employers to ask questions. seems that they have their hands tied and must walk on eggshells when it comes to someones legal status. [granted, there are those that WANT illegals...but maybe wouldn't if there were actual consequences]. if someone's looking for work and that hard up, should they really be offended by this? especially if they are as proud of their heritage as they should be.

 

simplified example:

 

"you look mexican"

"yes i do, but i'm legal"

"welcome aboard"

 

so yes, most of our grandparents were immigrants here. but when they got here, they worked their asses off to learn english and make sure they could survive in a foreign land. they weren't here looking for handouts or demanding that cops speak their native language or that schools cater to them. toughen up! certainly worked for them, we (the grandkids) all have the spare time [read: money] to be spraying all day and buying climbing gear

[KaskadskyjKozak]

how about this: allow employers to ask questions. seems that they have their hands tied and must walk on eggshells when it comes to someones legal status. [granted, there are those that WANT illegals...but maybe wouldn't if there were actual consequences]. if someone's looking for work and that hard up, should they really be offended by this? especially if they are as proud of their heritage as they should be.

 

simplified example:

 

"you look mexican"

"yes i do, but i'm legal"

"welcome aboard"

 

so yes, most of our grandparents were immigrants here. but when they got here, they worked their asses off to learn english and make sure they could survive in a foreign land. they weren't here looking for handouts or demanding that cops speak their native language or that schools cater to them. toughen up! certainly worked for them, we (the grandkids) all have the spare time [read: money] to be spraying all day and buying climbing gear

 

you don't need to ask questions like that. just ask for official documents from *everyone* and have a mechanism in place in the federal government where credentials are checked.

 

SSNs are unique per citizen - a simple thing to maintain in a database (and check against)

 

-- Stephen

[syklone]

As I understand things, many illegals have forged visas, social security numbers, etc. So when they are hired, the employers are withholding taxes - but the illegal worker has no way to claim any benefits.

 

If this is true - how do we hold the EMPLOYER accountable? If he looks at the required paperwork (birth certificate, social security card, driver's license, work visa). And its all in order, what can we expect him to do? Report suspicions?

 

Is this right? Is it fair? (They're not the same thing)

 

You are right about the visas and SSN's. Want a new one? $60, Woodburn OR. Hell I could even direct you to the correct block. Every illegal I know (5 off hand) has forged papers. As an employer, when you send in SSN's to the Feds, and it comes up bad, the resoponse from them is along the lines of "this number is not correct. Please give us more information if you have it." End of story. Do employers know that certain people are illegal? No doubt. But what is the real problem here then? Taking jobs from Americans? Nope, they don't want to work at Taco Bell past age 17. Getting gov benifits without paying taxes? Thats the biggest lie out there right now. Illegals with bad SSN's pay Social Security that is NEVER collected. EVER. They are helping to shore up a faltering system(not to get in to a discussion of SS) They pay taxes. Sales tax, excise tax, alcohol tax, cigarette tax, income tax (not much if you claim 10 dependants at the fed level, but some gets withheld at the state) The point is, they add significantly to the economy.

 

And, any one who knows economics should realize that for the US to support the number of illegals that we do, we must also have that number of excess jobs too. Market economics. If I could get illegals to work for me at half the cost of legit Americans, no shit I would go that route. The Americans that do the types of jobs that most illegals do arn't worth shit for wages.