"Normal" caution?

[chucK]

From the avalanche forecast:

 

"normal caution should be adequate for backcountry travel at this time."

 

What do they mean by normal caution?

 

Does that mean, stay off 35 degree slopes? Dig your rutcschbloch trenches every mile? Wear your beeper and never get out of sight of your partner?

 

What do you guys consider "normal" caution?

 

(For context see avalanche forecast.)

[JoshK]

Keep your eyes open and plan a route that avoids possibly suspect slopes as much as possible. Travel one at a time through terrain where an avalanche is possible. Stay off slopes that may be very suspect and make at least rudimentary stability tests when moving on to new slopes or aspects. Evaluate the changing weather and conditions throughout the day, esp. as warming occurs. This is what I would imagine as "normal" precautions.

[G-spotter]

Do you remember when you were a teenager and you were heading out on a date and your father took you aside for some fatherly advice "Son, don't do anything I wouldn't do".

 

That's what "normal caution" means.

[DirtyHarry]

[chucK]

Hey Harry,

See the furthest right green box in your chart. What do they mean by "normal caution"?

[G-spotter]

in the orange box, they don't define how much "extra caution" or how much steeper "steep terrain" is either. A qualitative scale?! Horrible! The Mountaineers Basic course taught me NEVER to use my own judgement!

[DirtyHarry]

Hey Harry,

See the furthest right green box in your chart. What do they mean by "normal caution"?

 

I think its fairly evident from the context, Chuck.

[chucK]

Ahh, the old fallback of the stumped instructor!

[DirtyHarry]

It means don't be a fucking retard and go on slopes that are super fucking dangerous, like wind-loaded rollovers. It means use common sense.

[chucK]

Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks Doc!

 

Any more stuff that would be considered retarded?

(That's probably an easy one and could easily launch some serious spray)

 

What about stuff that you might not have to really worry about in the green zone, but you would want to be wary of in the Yellow?

(harder question with greater exposure to liability!)

[DirtyHarry]

Well, Chuck, I think the avy danger chart up there assumes a backcountry traveler to have atleast rudimentary knowledge of avalanches and avalanche terrain and to perhaps (oh my god) use some of their own judgment in determining such things, incorporating such factors as how much one is personally willing to risk, recent weather, line of ascent, ski ability, etc.

For some slopes, I don't think ANWAC is going be able to tell you specifically whether to ski it or not. You need to use their data and information and decide for yourself.

[counterfeitfake]

if you're that confused, stay home

[mattp]

Chuck, there are lots of things that might be considered "normal precautions." For example, you might want to stay away from a gully below a cornice - particularly in warming weather, and when we get a sunny day like today you are going to see rock heat up and trigger slides, mostly "point release" rather than the more deadly "slab" avalanches but still something to worry about -- especially if you are somewhere above a cliff or stream where getting caught up in even a relatively shallow surface slide could be deadly.

 

But Harry and Mr. Fake know all - just stay home and for the love of god don't ask for advice on this bulletin board.

[DirtyHarry]

Damn Matt, I said exactly the same thing you just did - albeit in different words - but somehow your point is more valid?

[mattp]

Nope.

[Squid]

hah. Lawyers

 

What are you looking for, Chuck? Instructions on when and where to go? You're smart enough to know that this no way to write guidelines that are both specific and accurate about where to go in avy conditions.

 

While at first glance 'normal conditions' might seem laughably meaningless, you have to understand that these sorts of weasel words let us describe things that we cannot describe with certainty.

 

I do know that normal caution will prevent me from skiing TC on Dragontail.

[chucK]

No, I am not looking for instructions from cc.com on when and where to go. What made you think that?

 

I just asked what the NWAC might mean by "Normal Caution" (Note: that is quite different from "Normal Conditions"). I was not trying to find out exact conditions and safety estimates at all.

 

I was asking more of a technique question. I think it is analogous to the "What is meant by "Standard Rack"" question. Yes, it is vague, and answers may vary. But by that very nature it seems a bulletin board might be a great resource to find what a lot of people think about a fairly direct but ill-defined question.

 

I have an idea in my head of what Normal Caution might mean. But I do not have extensive experience in snow travel. Thus, I think it is quite possible that my idea of "normal caution" might differ from that of someone else with more experience. I thought this might be a good way to calibrate my notions with those of the more experienced.

 

 

Thanks to all of you who replied to this thread for giving me some input, even if we may have misunderstood each other.

 

(Except for counterfeitfake, your reply was worthless. )

[scott_johnston]

Chuck; Good question!

 

I get out in these mountains a lot both as a pro ski and climbing guide and on private trips and while I can't speak for the NW Avy guys and what exactly they mean by normal caution maybe I can shed some light on this stuff in light of the very "spring like" conditions we have now.

 

First of all, the main thing going on in the mtns right now is transformation of the snowpack. This is typical of spring time and makes avy forcasting almost impossible to do on a regional level do to local position providing more variables than can be assessed acurately from afar. In winter when the sun is low and its effects minimal at this latitude and the temps more constant with altitude these local effects get over powered by the regional weather/ snow patterns.

This means that now we have a higher degree of variability in the snow conditions with regard to; elevation, aspect, inclination, overhead rocks, etc. during the, esspecially early, spring.

 

Second; While the snow pack is in the midst of this rapid transition phase almost anything can and will be found out there. Last week end I had great powder skiing above 7500 on N aspects. So they are just saying keep your head up and eyes open. Stay atuned to the various things that effect hazard for you little localized world.

 

In my minfd they are saying "we can tell any major trends right now so just use your own judgement...but no major red flags exist in general"

 

As others have pointed out already some areas of concern for spring mtn travelers are: Cornice fall; snow bombs falling off cliffs/ledges/trees; warming of rock slabs exposed to sun can trigger HUGE slab avalanches. In general wet snow avys run slower/shorter and thus are easier to avoid than cold winter avys. Also in general cold clear nights will be followed by a soldly locked up snow pack that will allow touring with impunity in the morning. When you start to sink into the snow pack you should realize the pack's strength is going away fast and you probably should too. Stabilty will not return untill another cold or clear night (which allows for radiative cooling even with temps above freezing).

 

As an example:

Yesterday I skied up Silver Star creek off of Hwy 20. Skiing around Mazama has been hovering between bad and horredous this last week but it froze up on Thursday night so I was out the door early. Skinning up the creek was easy on a hard crust but I could see signs of very recent skiers and.......WHAT'S this.. a walker?? Give me a break. What was that person thinking? The tracks from both were deep and it looked like they had been up there on Wed when temps had been near 60F. I was going to be curious to see how high they were able to get.

 

The boot tracks went up to around 5500' when I lost them as I took a different line than they did. I saw that the skiers had gotten some nice but sloppy turns over under Vasiliki ridge. Conditions became softer the higher I went. above 6000' the snow has not gone through so many freeze thaw cycles so it had a breakable crust that I figured would make the descent interesting. Wet snow slides were in evidnce all over the place. The debris was new so I guess almost all the activity I saw was from the day before. I had some prior knowledge as I had been up there 2 times in the last 2 weeks. Skinning up the steep glaciated areas below the main summit I got a little cracking but the snow pack in general was locked up solid from the cold night and morning. Six inches of heavy powder awaited me for the initial 1000' of descent from near the summit. The skiiers and hiker had not gone above 6500' from what I could see and they were most likey put off by the wet condions and instabilites they saw around them.

 

This is not meant as a back country travel instruction but more to illustrate a point. You will find all sorts of stuff out there. The only way to learn about it is to get out there and to get some knowledgeable instruction.

 

I totally disagree with Mr Fake that you should stay inside if you are that confused. Anybody that thinks they know it all is simply fooling themselves. The more information you can absorb and experiences you can catalog the better positon you will be in to make decisons.

 

I would like to think that this board would be used to help spread kowledge not intimidate curious people.

 

Get out there;

 

Scott Johnston

[catbirdseat]

Scott your post was entirely out of character for this site: detailed, thoughtful, and considerate.

[larrythellama]

chuck harry forgot the bottom half of that chart.

 

AVALANCHE SAFETY BASICS

Avalanches don't happen by accident, and most human involvement is a matter of choice, not chance. Most avalanche accidents are caused by slab avalanches which are triggered by the victim or a member of the victim's party. However, any avalanche may cause injury or death and even small slides may be dangerous. Hence, always practice safe route finding skills, be aware of changing conditions, and carry avalanche rescue gear. Learn and apply avalanche terrain analysis and snow stability evaluation techniques to help minimize your risk. Remember that avalanche danger rating levels are only general guidelines. Distinctions between geographic areas, elevations, slope aspects and slope angles are approximate and transition zones between dangers exist. No matter what the current avalanche danger there are avalanche-safe areas in the mountains.