Index, Rockfall Issues

[olyclimber]

whatever means necessary.

not the best idea to post those sorts of words in a public forum. right now there is just some yahoos throwing stuff down, next thing you know you'll have an organized group working against climbers...and there are a lot of ORVers. Better to take the high ground, IMO, and get things done via official methods. Its more work, takes longer, is frustrating, but in the end it might be more effective than starting a war between user groups.

[Alpinfox]

I believe the solution to the problem is to close that road down by whatever means necessary.

 

Maybe we can get together and rent one of these for a day:

 

 

er...

 

 

Edit: I doubt making a road a few hundred feet shorter is going to start a war between user's groups.

[Dru]

I believe animal beer is the most common form of object thrown off.

 

[Alpinfox]

 

Canadians.

 

[DCramer]

As far as the Stihl...the State Parks guys did put some logs across the road. Digging a ditch or a mound to stop vehicles/motorcycles is equally ineffective. The bypass around the old bridge is evidence enough of that.

 

I am sure that 99% of the ORV guys are not causing any problems. As always it is the minority 1% causing the majority of the problems. The ORV types are organized. Last year the Index work party organized by the WCC was scheduled on the same day as the ORV Reiter Pit clean-up. The number of participants at the Town Walls was a mere fraction of those that showed up to work at the Pit.

 

If the road was officially closed would only the 99% that do not cause problems follow the law? Who knows?

[still_climbin]

CALL OUT THE ARMY! No, seriously, if DNR supports the closure but doesn't have the funds you might approach the 864th Engineer Battalion at Ft Lewis to see if they would disabble the road as a training excerecise. The key is that the project cannot be funded or otherwise take bread from the mouths of local contractors. Years ago I was with the 15th Engineers at Ft. Lewis and met the Forest Service Ranger at Verlot on the Stilli. He was a climber and through the friendship we took on three cool projects including airlifting materials to the summit of the south peak of Three Fingers to assist volunteers in restoring the lookout station for climber's use. Combat engineers do a great job of disabling roads using cratering charges or timber labyrinths.

Edited February 14, 2006 by still_climbin

[archenemy]

Maybe just ask some asshole who has a smart mouth to go up there occasionally and scare the shit out of the trundle troupe with cruel words and a little target practise.

[MisterMo]

whatever means necessary.

not the best idea to post those sorts of words in a public forum. right now there is just some yahoos throwing stuff down, next thing you know you'll have an organized group working against climbers...and there are a lot of ORVers. Better to take the high ground, IMO, and get things done via official methods. Its more work, takes longer, is frustrating, but in the end it might be more effective than starting a war between user groups.

 

A person could maybe go HERE or HERE , start a dialog and see where that leads.

Some other observations:

1) It ain't hikers chucking stuff; it's ORVrs A fact which will do nothing to prevent your getting killed. Nobody in their right mind would walk the old road out to the top of the wall in its current state. Twenty-five years ago it was a nice 1 mile flat to a cool view....perfect for taking your auntie from Indiana. Now it's a 1 mile mud wallow.

2) As responsible and serious about preserving access as most ORVrs seem to be, Reiter seems also to draw a large number of dickheads and party-hounds. Law enforcement is pretty lax, due, of course to stretched resources. There's frequently non street legal rigs at high speeds on Reiter Road itself despite clear signage that this is illegal. The trash and environmental damage is absolutely appalling.

3)I've had a couple of interesting chats with the rangers at WFSP (which oversees the state park land up the wall)about dumping issues. They're concerned and do what they can but they're limited as well.

 

A couple of solutions offer possibilities if the ORV community can not or will not behave as a group in a more acceptable manner:

1)Close EVERYTHING above the ponds at the fork to motorized traffic, or at least close the gate up under the power lines about 2 miles from the top of the wall.

2)License ORVs on state land and use those funds for enforcement of some simple rules of coommon decency.

 

There's a shitload of irony working on me here. The young MrMo passionately hated gates and all forms of regimented government supervision and rules, etc.....but every time I ride my (pedal) bike up Reiter a different light shines. The rumbling noises you hear are generations of vice-principals laughing their asses off in their graves.............

[DCramer]

I think the "best" solution would be to turn the Pit into an official area similar to the area around the Walker Boulders. There is no real way that the area above the Upper Wall can ever be completely closed. Truly there are very few places ORV's can legitimately go and do their thing. An official area would be easier to police and the ORV community would have a vested interest in policing it. The Upper Town Wall has been a topic of discussion on ORV boards before with little impact. Can the well behaved 99% reasonably be expected to control that 1%?

 

Maybe as part of the deal a nice motor free trail to Lake Isabel could be created!

 

Or maybe the roads to the top of the Zekes clear-cut could be maintained so that access is preserved. ORV cutting corners are destroying the roads. I remember hiking to Zeke’s from the the creek - it took all the fun out of it.

 

The sheer number of people involved at the Reiter Pit has created a situation that the DNR must address even without the Index Town Walls. The place is like a small city on the weekends. A very large number of people camp there.

Edited February 14, 2006 by DCramer

[MisterMo]

I think the "best" solution would be to turn the Pit into an official area similar to the area around the Walker Boulders. There is no real way that the area above the Upper Wall can ever be completely closed. Truly there are very few places ORV's can legitimately go and do their thing. An official area would be easier to police and the ORV community would have a vested interest in policing it. The Upper Town Wall has been a topic of discussion on ORV boards before with little impact. Can the well behaved 99% reasonably be expected to control that 1%?

 

It is my impression that the Reiter area already enjoys at least quasi-official ORV status with DNR. Much of the upper land, at least, is state owned in one form or another. I suspect the Copper Belle clearcut is private, and I've been told that the pit area is private as well. I fully agree that ORVrs need their little chunk of the world, and I further agree that more stringent enforcement would not be easy or cheap. But what's the alternative? Is it necessary for someone to get killed? I submit that one full-time cop-ranger in Western Washington, paid for out of ORV registration fees, and enforcing a handfull of you'll-wish-you-hadn't-done-that laws with teeth and the problem would lessen in short order.

 

Maybe as part of the deal a nice motor free trail to Lake Isabel could be created!

 

Once upon a time the trail from the mine to Isabel was almost all vehicle free except for a chunk of old road in the middle. Is that no longer the case? I haven't been to Isabel in a long time.

 

Or maybe the roads to the top of the Zekes clear-cut could be maintained so that access is preserved. ORV cutting corners are destroying the roads. I remember hiking to Zeke’s from the the creek - it took all the fun out of it.

 

See above. I suspect that whole clearcut is patented mining land, not public.

 

The sheer number of people involved at the Reiter Pit has created a situation that the DNR must address even without the Index Town Walls. The place is like a small city on the weekends. A very large number of people camp there..

 

As they do in several areas up near and at where the gravel road forks off from the pavement.

[DCramer]

ORV activity is certainly legal on the DNR land but the huge increase in the numbers of people at the pit have created a situation that demands a change in regulation. From discussions with officials last summer it appeared as though a change of some sort was coming to the Pit.

 

Your probably right about the clear cut land being private ownership. Maybe there is an opportunity for climbers and ORV types to work together to secure the land as part of the State Parks.

 

Last time I was on the road leading to Isabel I was passed by a train of 11 4x4s!

[markd]

whatever the solution is needs to be applied at beacon rock as well. people are always throwing stuff of and endangering climbers.

[jessehuey]

Just talked with the DNR. Things are looking good. The DNR, State, and our interested group are the keys here. I think we should have a meeting for anyone who is serious about doing something. I am thinking next week. Anyone interested in meeting up.

[Alpinfox]

 

Would the meeting be in Index?

 

I'd come if it were in Seattle.

[MisterMo]

Index is probably not the best choice for most here, but I'll volunteer our little meeting hall. I'd also attend if it works with my job & I get over this evil flu bug.

[jessehuey]

How about Hales Ale in Freemont on thursday the 23rd at 8:00PM. We can change places if we need to or the time, I don't mind but I will be gone until Tuesday night.

[Alpinfox]

You are going to get the DNR and some state agency rep to meet at a bar?

[mattp]

... right now there is just some yahoos throwing stuff down, next thing you know you'll have an organized group working against climbers...and there are a lot of ORVers. Better to take the high ground, IMO, and get things done via official methods. Its more work, takes longer, is frustrating, but in the end it might be more effective than starting a war between user groups.

 

Wise counsel. We want ORV people and Parks and other parties on our side, not angered by our hotheaded response to a bad situation.

[fatswaller]

Back in the early eighties,we did the first couple pitches of the Town Crier.We were lounging on big honker ledge when I noticed a few small rocks wizzing by.All of a sudden it started raining large rocks.This went on for what seemed like an eternity,maybe a half hour.We pressed up against the wall and tried to be small while screaming at the top of our lungs to who ever to stop.Finally the trundling stopped and we rappelled back to the ground gripped out of our minds.We assumed it was trundlers but could never find out for sure.I have never heard of this happening to any other climbers untill now.I have visited the Index Cell Tower,located above the Town Walls,for jobs recently and have noticed a lot of strange folks in the area.Lots of 4 wheelers,dirt bikers,and yahoos that would have no idea people might be climbing below.

Edited February 15, 2006 by fatswaller

[David Trippett]

Maybe the solution is to not try to restrict access....but to increase it...hear me out for a second....in Squamish, when the Chief was still a place where people went to get drunk and listen to Foghat on their amps that went to 11...it was difficult to encourage these people to behave themselves when there was little incentive for the authorities to police them. Today the Chief is a popular spot for the young urban set as well as families...and it should be. It's a beautiful spot to be enjoyed by all.

 

I have been up to that look-out on Index after topping out on Davis-Holland/Lovin Arms and it is a great spot. These kind of places are something that the locals cherish because they are beautiful and free and they consider them their territory. They are not.

 

This spot is PUBLIC. If you want to stop the bullshit....then start to talk about IMPROVING the access.....Get funds from some source to put up railings , little geology info signs, an outhouse, whatever....make it somewhere that people want to go on the weekend for an outing. "Hey honey lets hike up to the Index lookout" etc.....

 

If you want the rednecks to behave them don't try to do it with signs and exclusionary tactics....thats why all the signs in the countryside are full of bullet holes. Make the area "un-redneck-chique" and they will go somewhere else.

 

I guarantee you the first time some Microsoft exec comes up with their family and sees Jethro tossing his bottle of Jaeger off the wall and the cops get called....things will change fast.

 

 

The question is....who do want up there? The hillbillies or the yuppies? Index is a gem. It is ripe for some serious development. Look at Squamish ten years ago....now property values are through the roof. You need to think about those who are exploiting it and those who are going to in the future...the difference is the amount of power the groups wield. Take heed....set the groundwork now and you will protect the area from exploitation of a grosser type.

 

I think it may be time to think about forming an STRONG(this means all those high profile mountaineers with powerful friends you guys have in Seattle) access society for Index....if there isn't already one....and secure the funds to improve the lookout. Instead of trying to exclude the locals....include them....and everyone else. As long as the climbers avoid taking an adversarial stance and approch the problem from creating universal access(government agencies love this) you will in turn ensure access for ourselves and others who wish to use the area in a respectful manner.

 

The locals will have to behave because their actions will no longer be able to remain from public scrutiny. As long as we afford these people the veil behind which to act out, then we cannot expect the authorities to take notice....and it is only a few bad apples to be sure.....

 

Our desire to preserve these spots for ourselves is the achilles heel...to preserve access we have to share and secure these places for all. I am not suggesting building a gift shop and selling T-shirts, as I am sure some will....but the sooner you set the tone for the use of Index the better. Those responsibe folks in the 4x4 community will no doubt want to preserve their access as well... and they should have it. Once they realize that they risk losing it if they don't get rid of the drunken toilet tossing minority...then they will come around as well.

 

All I know is that Index is a special place and is subject to a lot of usage conflicts...be the ones that solve the problem through consensus building and you will ensure access for climbers. Don't wait untill there is a Walmart in Index and a charge lot at the parking spot.

 

My .02 Canadian

[MisterMo]

 

Really good points. Thank you.

[olyclimber]

Can someone recommend a good real estate agent for the Index area?

[MisterMo]

No, but one may exist. There's currently on vacant chunk in town with a for sale sign up and several parcels up the river, past the end of power, phone, and civilization as we know it. Pretty though.............

[olyclimber]

I'm just looking for a piece of land up there. Perhaps a few of us can colonize.

[DCramer]

I agree completely with the "increase access" comment. That is exactly what I tried to suggest with my earlier comment regarding making ORV activity even more legitimate. The Walker Boulders ORV is extensive and quite developed. The process for creating an official ORV site at/near the Reiter Pit is already in motion. It seems like right now might be the time for climber input into the process.

 

One challenge the Town Walls face is an amazing patchwork of different landowners. This one of the reasons that I did not mention increasing access at the Town Walls. (See example below) The railroad tracks are a significant impediment to any potential development. Burlington Northern has made its concerns known to the Parks Department and without a proper crossing increased traffic could lead to trouble. (The Index Sportsman’s Club property is suffering from a significant level of pollution and does not appear to be part of a near term solution either.)

 

I do not think that simply closing a road will significantly reduce the problem at the top of the Upper Wall. The entire area above the UW is a braid of trails and new routes to the Upper Wall will soon be found. The main approach road has been closed twice that I can remember - once unofficially when the bridge broke and a second time when the road was blocked in an official manner. Both times I did not notice a reduction in the number of people accessing the Upper Wall from the back. ORV traffic has increased many fold since then but the number of ORV types shooting weapons has plummeted. Blocking the road might simply keep the “good” guys away and these are the very people we need to help control the situation. There is no quick fix the key to improving the situation is continued engagement with and by all parties involved.

 

A group of climbers have been involved with the Town Walls. In the 80s climbers were involved with keeping access open when the DNR leased land to the Robbins Company for their tunneling equipment. Several years later climbers were active when the DNR gave control of much of the Town Wall to the State Parks. Over the years various climbers have organized clean-ups and anchor replacement drives. Monies were reserved for the potential purchase of the Lower Wall. Unfortunately this has suffered a setback recently and has been place on the back burner by the Parks Dept. Last summer the lead Ranger at Wallace Falls park brought up an idea of how toilet facilities could be placed near the Lower Wall parking lot. That toilets were brought up at all is evidence that State Parks does have an interest in the Town Walls. Several years ago due to issues with railroad crossing and other land ownership issues the Park Dept was forced to turn down an offer by climbers to help finance porta potties. Many of the people involved then are still involved and are active in the WCC.

 

The Parks Department personnel at Wallace Falls have been incredibly friendly and supportive of climbers. Last year a week or so after the “official” clean-up day Parks staff returned to the Upper Wall trail with chainsaws and spent several hours cutting blocking trees on their own. They also spent several days clearing brush along the railroad tracks so that climbers would be enticed to walk further from the RR tacks in order to minimize any possible train/climber interaction.

 

(Example: if the parking lot for the Lower Wall is overflowing a climber can easily park on land owned by the Forest Service or along county controlled road, then walk across the parking lot and RR tracks that are controlled by Burlington Northern, skirt the base of the Lower Wall which is private property, walk to the Upper Wall over what is mostly State Parks land but around the left side might cross onto another chunk of private land for a time only to come close to or on DNR land before crossing back over to State Parks land. I should add that some little known areas require crossing land under power lines. I am not sure who controls that land)

Edited February 15, 2006 by DCramer