2 questions about quickdraws...

[worldonastrng]

1. Quickdraws or slings?

2. How many is good to start out with?

[Blake]

1. is your pro generally in-line, or wandery?

2. How much pro you planning on clipping the rope to?

[worldonastrng]

1. So far, its been mostly in line. I think I see the answer to that one.

 

2. This is the thing I'm not so sure about. I've been climbing mostly single pitch routes with 4-7 (if i remember correctly) pieces of pro. I'll be moving to harder and longer climbsas time goes on. Perhaps I should stick with maybe 8 quick draws then? Unless there's something I'm not considering.

[cluck]

Quickdraws for sport climb.... slings for trad climbs

 

For draws - 8 will give you enough for 6 bolts + 2 to use at the anchor (if you plan on setting a top rope). I prefer to carry 10 or 12 cuz 6 bolts is either a very short route, or a very runout route.

 

As for slings - I'd say the same number or maybe a few more. I tend to use more pro when trad climbing then sport climbing and thus need more slings.

[selkirk]

quick-draws on trad gear is bad juju. They tend to cause more wiggle than a single length sling will. Saw a good friend pop 3 out of 8 pieces on a single 25m pitch with a relatively straight rope line. Slings done up quickdraw style work fine on bolts, but it doesn't go the other way. If you really like the dogbones though just buy the draws, strip the biners and throw them slings when your climbing trad.

 

I tend to be overly cautious but I think 12-15 slings for a trad pitch is about right. If it's a full length pitch that's somewhat stiff (5.8ish?) I usually want 14 or so. And for 25m crag stuff I seem to end up wanting somewhere between 8 and 11 pieces.

 

As for the distribution of slings? I use 8 singles and 4 doubles. Seems to work out pretty well. If your doing lots of alpine stuff you'll probably want more doubles though.

[Cobra_Commander]

quick-draws on trad gear is bad juju.

 

Quickdraws can be just fine on trad gear. People have been using them for years with no ill effects. But yes they will induce rope drag (as will any gear placed incorrectly).

 

Saw a good friend pop 3 out of 8 pieces on a single 25m pitch with a relatively straight rope line.

 

Your good friend either sucks at placing gear or is leading some pretty heady lines!

 

Slings done up quickdraw style work fine on bolts, but it doesn't go the other way.

 

This is simply untrue! Tripled-up slings (I think that's what you are talking about?) work just fine for protecting trad lines.

 

Are quickdraws the best option? Maybe not, but one should avoid making blanket statements like "quickdraws are bad juju" (whatever that might mean).

[Alpinfox]

 

What metal-face said.

[chucK]

For like half a buck more per sling you can get those mammut dymneema superthin slings. They are supple and thin and really nice when tripling up the 24" sling to make a quickdraw. They alleviate the problem of bulkiness of the tripled-sling quickdraw method. Get as many of those as you can, then fill out the rest of your quickdraw rack with whatever.

 

I find no need for any double-length slings. If I need a longer extension, I just clip two single-length slings together. It helps that my quickdraw rack is almost exclusively of the tripled-sling variety.

 

There are sport routes out there (Prince of Darkness, Infinite Bliss, Chossmaster ) that have pitches with 15+ clips, so don't stop at 12. Though 12 will get you through most situations (you can usually combine with your partner for those maxi-clipups).

 

Finally, if you don't know what the hell we are talking about by the "tripled-sling" thing. Then ask away. I'm sure someone here knows a link that has a picture and explanation of this super-handy method.

[tomtom]

Skipping bolts builds character.

[selkirk]

She was climbing Moonshine dihedral, and the shortness of the draws led to the pieces being pulled sideways, which popped several nuts out while she was still on lead. And she's normally pretty good about her gear. And quickdraws are great on bolts. I just personally don't trust them on trad gear, I don't think they're flexible enough. And your right people have been using them on gear for ages, but that doesn't mean it's the best way or that there isn't the potential for it to cause problems.

 

2 wiregates and some of the little mammut slings is definitely the way to go in my book.

[Cobra_Commander]

The mammut slings are nice. Combined with a superlight wiregate they are almost too light to the point of being fiddly when you make clips.

 

As for Moonshine Dihedral, pretty much every nut placement you can make on that thing IS a bolt so you might as well break out the shorty dogbones and lycra.

[Dru]

And quickdraws are great on bolts. I just personally don't trust them on trad gear, I don't think they're flexible enough.

 

What about those scary climbers who clip right into the biner on the cam sling? OMFG revoke their Mountaineers Leader Qualifications and send them back to Scrambling Class!

[Cobra_Commander]

No shit the entire Indian Creek climbing community is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

[Alpinfox]

 

Impending doom:

[selkirk]

How often around here are the cracks dead vertical splitters where the rope line doesn't vary any further than your hips wiggle? For cracks like those it doesn't make much difference how long and flexible your draws are.

 

As memory serves didn't short stiff draws on trad gear contribute to a rather severe accident at Vantage not to long ago. And on plumb straight crack as well.

[Alpinfox]

The cracks don't need to be vertical (just straight) to obviate the need for long slings. Also, the whole route need not be straight. Use long draws where the route angles and short draws where it's straight. Saves time + energy to use draws or not have to extend your trippled slings on every piece of gear.

 

In the vantage accident, it seems likely that a biner got loaded over one of those incut edges very common at vantage. If memory serves, it was the gear side biner that broke, not the rope biner, so it didn't matter how long the draw was. I could be wrong about that.

 

Fact remains, most (yes most) of the time, clipping directly to the cam, a short draw, or trippled sling is fine.

 

RE: the original question. If you are primarily sport climbing, get a dozen draws and maybe four 24" (60cm) slings. If primarily trad/alpine climbing, get ~10 24" slings and couple of doubles and take a few quickdraws along. The mammut 8mm slings are obviously the best.

 

[Cobra_Commander]

You have brought up an issue that one should be aware of, but I believe the issue is overblown. Poorly-placed gear will pull at the right vector whether it's a draw or a sling. Many times extending a sling is warranted, particularly at the start of a route where you anticipate a lot of gear placements, or a meandering crack. But many times you don't need to do this, and a lot of times you are just trying to get out of groundfall territory. Do you extend every shoulder-length sling you connect to trad gear? You're welcome to do this, but I think it's a bit off to say it's flat-out wrong to use draws or tripled slings. 1 accident, where the details are hazy at best, really doesn't balance out the thousands of hangs, whippers, and general shenanigins that have occured above gear on draws and shorty slings with no sad result.

 

I bet you could go to rockclimbing.com and find this debated on a 20 page manifesto.

[selkirk]

I use the trippled draws all the time, and rarely extend them, they're still much more flexible in this configuration than sport draws are though. However if all you have are dogbones that's not an option.

 

As for the accident, the last thing I remember hearing was that they though the cam placement walked in deeper causing the biner-gate to wedge open, and part of the reason the cam likely walked is that it was clipped to the rope with a short, stiff sport draw.

 

Out of curiosity, how often do you two clip directly to cam slings, or to trad gear using dogbones?

[Alpinfox]

Out of curiosity, how often do you two clip directly to cam slings, or to trad gear using dogbones?

 

Every time that it is appropriate.

 

[Cobra_Commander]

To be honest I usually use tripled slings, since I have them and I like the option of extending them. They are more flexible. But I have used dogbone draws, and wouldn't hesitate to use them again where appropriate.

 

I clip directly to cams when on a straight crack and the cam is not going to walk. Particularly when I'm freaking out and I want a fast clip, and to get my money's worth above the piece. Or near the start of routes where I'm looking at hitting the ground and the going is not straightforward. Or when there are limited jam options and I don't want a bunch of fiddly runner/biner stuff in my way.

 

There are a lot of basalt cracks like this, such as Smith lower gorge, etc. where I feel just fine clipping directly to the cam.

[chucK]

I clip using dogbone draws only when I'm climbing with someone else's rack.

[Dru]

probably 75% of clips with quickdraws when cragging, and 25% when alpine climbing.... and about 5% directly into the cam sling in both situations

[tomtom]

How often around here are the cracks dead vertical splitters where the rope line doesn't vary any further than your hips wiggle?

There are a bunch of routes at Vantage, Tieton and Squish that fit this description.

[catbirdseat]

I think it was Trogdortheburninator who pointed out in another thread that on these super straight routes, the main purpose of longer draws is simply to get you past the piece. The angle the rope makes as it comes away from the rock to your body has a tendency to pull out on pieces. This is why I'll extend a tripled sling to full length on a cam, but just put a draw on a nut that is set nicely.

[Geek_the_Greek]

This is the type of thread where it would really be illuminating to see the climbing resume of the folks posting here. How many years leading, places they climb at, grades, etc. Democracy is nice and all, but all opinions are not equal.

 

Um, having said that, it's pretty clear to me (10+ years leading on gear up to low 11s, FWIW) that clipping directly into cams or gear can work great, or be dangerous. If I recall correctly, the cover photo on Advanced Rock Climbing (Long/Luebben, Falcon press) shows Hidetaka Suzuki clipping directly into a tiny nut on a desperate looking dihedral crack. Hidetaka knows his shizzle and has been doing hard stuff in relative safety for decades. But yeah, it's not quite as idiot-proof as using a long, flexible draw. Dogbones are somewhere in the middle - quick and easy to clip, but yeah, a little more prone to levering gear.

 

There is no right answer to the question. If you prefer light weight and less fiddle and know what you're doing, some clipping in directly, and some dogbones may work. Sportos generally hate fiddly, hard-to-clip, knee-knocking long draws. If you are new to this (sounds like it) and want to be a bit more cautious, mostly long draws will be a more flexible system, although a bit more fiddly. For alpine, dogbones are crappy and long draws are the shiz.