Dru Posted October 28, 2005 Posted October 28, 2005 You can only Drupoint on your 27,000th repeat. Quote
archenemy Posted October 28, 2005 Posted October 28, 2005 What are you saying? Dru has no point? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 28, 2005 Posted October 28, 2005 No, Dru's point is giant squidism; it's climbing that has no point. Quote
archenemy Posted October 28, 2005 Posted October 28, 2005 ah, yes, squidism. Its all coming clear to me now. My rule for climbing is that my climbing partner has to be better than me. Fortunately, this does not rule many people out. Quote
sk Posted October 29, 2005 Posted October 29, 2005 ah, yes, squidism. Its all coming clear to me now. My rule for climbing is that my climbing partner has to be better than me. Fortunately, this does not rule many people out. this is a good rule and one i live and climb by as well Quote
Lepton Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Well, I suppose if you get a step ladder and dunk a basketball then you can say that you are just as good as Michael Jordan in his prime.... ... hangdogging, toproping, aid grabs, rehearsing...that's all climbing with training wheels. Not to say that it is bad, but if you want to say you climbed something hard, then be honest with yourself and others regarding your accomplishments. Reminds of waiting at the base of Iron Horse while an aid climbing duo finished their wack at it, only to hear one of them exclaim excitedly, "We just did a 5.12!".....huh? Ja, just do it. Quote
cman Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 I guess if leading a route were you hang a bunch provides the same sense of accomplishment as when you lead one where you fight through the hard parts and make is up on your own then you should just ignore "the rules" i know for me those are not the same thing. Quote
archenemy Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Reminds of waiting at the base of Iron Horse while an aid climbing duo finished their wack at it, only to hear one of them exclaim excitedly, "We just did a 5.12!".....huh? Ja, just do it. As far as I can see, their statement is correct. Note they did not say they "climbed" a twelve. If yer gonna be picky, get specific man. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 Well, I suppose if you get a step ladder and dunk a basketball then you can say that you are just as good as Michael Jordan in his prime.... ... hangdogging, toproping, aid grabs, rehearsing...that's all climbing with training wheels. Not to say that it is bad, but if you want to say you climbed something hard, then be honest with yourself and others regarding your accomplishments. It's commonly accepted that these are the standard techniques for succeeding on climbs at or above one's limit, so it's understood that if someone says they climbed something "hard" (for them--be it 5.6 or 5.14), the assumption is that they had to work at it first. Otherwise, the ascensionist probably onsighted or flashed the route, and would no doubt say so. Your stupidly rigid standards for success on a hard climb would invalidate at least 99% of all standard-setting climbs of the last 20 years (30 years? 50 years?), and reflects a probable lack of experience on your part attempting and climbing hard routes. Working a route on TR or via relentless dogging, french-freeing, or rappel inspection has got nothing to do with using a step-ladder to drop a ball through a hoop. Quote
RuMR Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 well said... but you're still a punkass bitch... Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 well said... and you can still easily punk my ass like the little bitch that I am... True dat! Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 31, 2005 Posted October 31, 2005 this weekend, you're gettin' a rubbin... Stay away, sicko! Maybe you can get away with that with your little mat buddies, but the DFA don't swing that way. Quote
Lepton Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 Well, I suppose if you get a step ladder and dunk a basketball then you can say that you are just as good as Michael Jordan in his prime.... ... hangdogging, toproping, aid grabs, rehearsing...that's all climbing with training wheels. Not to say that it is bad, but if you want to say you climbed something hard, then be honest with yourself and others regarding your accomplishments. It's commonly accepted that these are the standard techniques for succeeding on climbs at or above one's limit, so it's understood that if someone says they climbed something "hard" (for them--be it 5.6 or 5.14), the assumption is that they had to work at it first. Otherwise, the ascensionist probably onsighted or flashed the route, and would no doubt say so. Your stupidly rigid standards for success on a hard climb would invalidate at least 99% of all standard-setting climbs of the last 20 years (30 years? 50 years?), and reflects a probable lack of experience on your part attempting and climbing hard routes. Working a route on TR or via relentless dogging, french-freeing, or rappel inspection has got nothing to do with using a step-ladder to drop a ball through a hoop. I think you have a valid point, that climbs on the cutting edge most often do require repeated attempts, falls, failures, etc. etc. It is all part of the process of learning your limitations and possibilities. Climbs accomplished on lead, from bottom to top, are still the standard of excellence I think that we all aspire to, don't you think? I believe the original post was more in reference to the question of what is defined as having "accomplished" a climb. Do you consider the "bastard knocked off" if you took a hangdog rest or two, or top roped it? I would think you would want to be proud of what you have accomplished, but also note you left room for improvement. If a climber reports to the community that he or she has "accomplished" a climb, in today's climbing scene what does that really mean? Let's suppose that there is a longstanding problem that many are trying over time and one person resorts to using any and all means to "do" the climb, announces it, names the route and claims the glory, without actually having climbed the whole thing from bottom to top in one go. Is that really a valid first ascent? Or suppose that someone comes along and top ropes the climb, would that be worthy of laying claim to being the first ascent and naming the route? I think that is the fundamental question, and the reason why climbers in today's "state of the sport" want to know the particulars of how a climb is done. P.S. Regarding my lack of experience, you may want to read the threads regarding the bolting of Dan's Dreadful Direct or my ode to Russell Machine and get back to me. Quote
archenemy Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 If a climber reports to the community that he or she has "accomplished" a climb, in today's climbing scene what does that really mean? That he has an ego issue. Quote
tomtom Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 Let's suppose that there is a longstanding problem that many are trying over time and one person resorts to using any and all means to "do" the climb, announces it, names the route and claims the glory, without actually having climbed the whole thing from bottom to top in one go. Is that really a valid first ascent? Or suppose that someone comes along and top ropes the climb, would that be worthy of laying claim to being the first ascent and naming the route? I think that is the fundamental question, and the reason why climbers in today's "state of the sport" want to know the particulars of how a climb is done. Not everyone gives a rat's ass about the first ascentionist. Speaking of silly Rules, how can a single pitch crag climb have more than one first ascentionist? The first person up is the first person up, unless they climb rumr/DFA style riding on top of each other (which is aid). Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 Speaking of silly Rules, how can a single pitch crag climb have more than one first ascentionist? The first person up is the first person up, unless they climb rumr/DFA style riding on top of each other (which is aid). I think if you and your partner were both developing a route, cleaning it, bolting it, and you flipped a coin / took turns to see who would get the first redpoint (and the other follows with a redpoint), then you both deserve credit. Quote
archenemy Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 Speaking of silly Rules, how can a single pitch crag climb have more than one first ascentionist? The first person up is the first person up, unless they climb rumr/DFA style riding on top of each other (which is aid). I think if you and your partner were both developing a route, cleaning it, bolting it, and you flipped a coin / took turns to see who would get the first redpoint (and the other follows with a redpoint), then you both deserve credit. What kind of coin, specifically? Do you have to call it in the air, or before the flip is initiated? Does it have to land on the ground, or do you have to do the hand catch, arm slap deal? Is it two out of three, or only one flip? How do you decide on who gets to be the flipper and who is the flippee? Who supplies the coin? Is there an independent third party to verify the results? These are important considerations to have clarified before the big moment arrives. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 I think you have a valid point, that climbs on the cutting edge most often do require repeated attempts, falls, failures, etc. etc. It is all part of the process of learning your limitations and possibilities. Climbs accomplished on lead, from bottom to top, are still the standard of excellence I think that we all aspire to, don't you think? I believe the original post was more in reference to the question of what is defined as having "accomplished" a climb. Do you consider the "bastard knocked off" if you took a hangdog rest or two, or top roped it? I would think you would want to be proud of what you have accomplished, but also note you left room for improvement. If a climber reports to the community that he or she has "accomplished" a climb, in today's climbing scene what does that really mean? Let's suppose that there is a longstanding problem that many are trying over time and one person resorts to using any and all means to "do" the climb, announces it, names the route and claims the glory, without actually having climbed the whole thing from bottom to top in one go. Is that really a valid first ascent? Or suppose that someone comes along and top ropes the climb, would that be worthy of laying claim to being the first ascent and naming the route? I think that is the fundamental question, and the reason why climbers in today's "state of the sport" want to know the particulars of how a climb is done. P.S. Regarding my lack of experience, you may want to read the threads regarding the bolting of Dan's Dreadful Direct or my ode to Russell Machine and get back to me. Gotcha w/r/t qualifications for "success." Even the brilliant and handsome (why, yes, quite ) Dr. Flash Amazing has been known to misunderestimate the ponderables of a parlay-ification now and then. As for your credentials, the good Doctor does not, alas, speak the North Cascades Trad dialect, but will graciously concede the point, lest you someday burn him off at the crag in front of the Amazing Entourage . Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 unless they climb rumr/DFA style riding on top of each other (which is aid). Hey, he might seem worthless, but his compact size and extreme density qualify him as extremely effective training weight. Quote
archenemy Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 unless they climb rumr/DFA style riding on top of each other (which is aid). Hey, he might seem worthless, but his compact size and extreme density qualify him as extremely effective training weight. Are you saying he's a dumbell? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted November 1, 2005 Posted November 1, 2005 Are you saying he's a dumbell? At best. Quote
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