One Nation under God

[Dru]

Glory for the Godless

Life in God's country may not be paradise on Earth, if a study published in the Journal of Religion and Society is to be believed. Religious practices don't necessarily enhance a society's moral and ethical fiber, according to the study, and in fact may prove deleterious. "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies," said Gregory Paul, the study's author. Looking at social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy, Paul concluded that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. And the worst offender? "The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so," said Paul.

 

----from Wired

[foraker]

I like how he refers to us as a 'developing democracy'.

[catbirdseat]

I have to agree with him on the US. We are majorly f'd up. So Dru, care to comment on the degree of religion-induced dysfunctionality in Canada?

[foraker]

They may be exempt from the study since 'hockey' and 'poutine' aren't really considered, 'religions', per se.

[stinkyclimber]

They may be exempt from the study since 'hockey' and 'poutine' aren't really considered, 'religions', per se.

You've clearly never been to a Habs game, where those two pursuits are combined.

[JoshK]

Religious practices don't necessarily enhance a society's moral and ethical fiber,

 

HAHAH. YEAH, NO SHIT!!! Did anybody ever think that religous practices enhanced society's morality in any way!?

[selkirk]

religion in and of itself isn't inherently bad. The ideas are typically pretty good. It's the tendency of a lot of people to give up their decision making power, and put all of their faith and loyalty to a single person in a possision of power who may or may not be moral, but is usually charismatic. That spooks me.

 

I wonder which religions he looked at? Would be interesting to see how that applies to things like Buddhism, Shinto, Hinduism etc, or if he focused on the western religions?

[catbirdseat]

You nailed it. With religion, when you encounter a social problem, instead of saying, "Let's get together and decide on a solution that makes the most sense for the most people", you'd say, "Let's look it up in these 3000 year old scriptures and see what it says".

[Dru]

When I moved to Chilliwack (highest number of churches in BC and most religious community in BC) one thing I noticed right away was that the number of teenage moms was WAY WAY higher than anywhere else I'd been in BC. Like it seems most kids go through senior year twice, first time in a stroller and then again 16 years later as a new mom or new dad.

[selkirk]

Well, that's assuming you have a good reasoning thoughtful religion. I'm a slightly wayward Catholic myself, and most of things that they espouse have extremely well thought out arguments and reasons based not only on scripture but on ideal morals etc. If you've ever read the catechism, every last aspect of everything the church as a whole believes in is extremely well thought out. That doesn't bother me so much, it's at least been well thought out, even if I disagree on some points.

 

Seems like when there is a social problem a lot of religions or sub-groups within the religions resort to "Lets trust the individual who lectures to us about how to think every week (or whomever is in charge) interpret the scriptures for us, and tell us what to do." That scares the piss out of me. Far too much power in the hands of 1, fundamentally flawed individual. It gives some people bully pulpits to spout whatever BS they want, and back it up with whatever portion of the scripture they like, while ignore the rest. So we end up with the occasional pogrom or vitriole against homosexuality while damn near ignoring poverty.

[selkirk]

The whole abstinance only education track is blowing up. Teaches kids to be fearful and ashamed. It does end up increasing how long teenagers wait to have sex slightly (1-2 years?) But when they do, they're so misinformed and afraid to ask questions that they don't, resulting in higher pregnancy and std transmission rates because they end up engaging in risky behaviour out of ignorance.

[archenemy]

I like how he refers to us as a 'developing democracy'.

As opposed to one that is all done with modifications?

Maybe "Divine Democracy" would be a big hit.

[foraker]

I just thought it was funny because:

a) all democracies, et al are 'developing' and

b) it sounds like we are in the same pigeonhole as Iraq.

[ScottP]

religion in and of itself isn't inherently bad. The ideas are typically pretty good. It's the tendency of a lot of people to give up their decision making power, and put all of their faith and loyalty to a single person in a possision of power who may or may not be moral, but is usually charismatic. That spooks me.

 

(snip)

 

In the name of religion...

[cj001f]

Well, that's assuming you have a good reasoning thoughtful religion. I'm a slightly wayward Catholic myself, and most of things that they espouse have extremely well thought out arguments and reasons based not only on scripture but on ideal morals etc. If you've ever read the catechism, every last aspect of everything the church as a whole believes in is extremely well thought out. That doesn't bother me so much, it's at least been well thought out, even if I disagree on some points.

 

And your position on Liberation Theology is?

 

The catholic church certainly has a coherent narrative, it's a bit of a strech to call it "well thought out", to my mind that would be both a coherent and consistant narrative, which isn't historically true of the church.

[archenemy]

Well, that's assuming you have a good reasoning thoughtful religion. I'm a slightly wayward Catholic myself, and most of things that they espouse have extremely well thought out arguments and reasons based not only on scripture but on ideal morals etc. If you've ever read the catechism, every last aspect of everything the church as a whole believes in is extremely well thought out. That doesn't bother me so much, it's at least been well thought out, even if I disagree on some points.

 

The catholic church certainly has a coherent narrative, it's a bit of a strech to call it "well thought out", to my mind that would be both a coherent and consistant narrative, which isn't historically true of the church.

 

That narrative has been around for thousands of years. How much longer do you think it needs to be studied, interpreted, and taught to qualify in your opinion as "well thought out"?

[foraker]

didn't jesus hate the idea of churches anyway?

[archenemy]

didn't jesus hate the idea of churches anyway?

 

Hate is a strong word. Basically, he proposed that people could have a personal relationship with God rather than rely on an intermediary. Hence, the Christian Church (which the Catholic Church branched from due to many reasons including papal structure, etc but it still claims historical continuity with the original Christian Church). This relationship does not preclude a church per se.

[foraker]

ok, but it does kind of imply that you should be working through it yourself rather than being a passive participant (kind of like do i go climbing or do i watch people climbing on tv?)

[archenemy]

ok, but it does kind of imply that you should be working through it yourself rather than being a passive participant (kind of like do i go climbing or do i watch people climbing on tv?)

 

Actually, Christ asked that people work through him. Furthermore, he told St. Peter, "You will be the rock upon which my Church will be built".

 

Christianity is not a do-it-yourself religion. But, it does not require that you have an intermediary speak on your behalf to God. You get to pray to the Big Guy directly.

[selkirk]

Yep, people really should be actively trying to understand and develop their understanding of any belief set they ascribe to. Catholic priests kind of play the role of counselors and teachers as much as anything else. If all people do is go to mass, sleep through the sermons, and take communion, I guess it's probably better than nothing, but still leaves a lot to be desired.

[archenemy]

Yep, people really should be actively trying to understand and develop their understanding of any belief set they ascribe to. Catholic priests kind of play the role of counselors and teachers as much as anything else. If all people do is go to mass, sleep through the sermons, and take communion, I guess it's probably better than nothing, but still leaves a lot to be desired.

 

I agree. I would also add that folks might consider actively developing their understanding of religions that they do not ascribe to.

[JoshK]

Thinking is a huge waste of time and energy. I'm gonna go watch a few minutes of Pat Robertson then go nap...

[Stonehead]

Ok, here's the one that gets me. 'Celibate' Catholic priests who provide marriage counseling. Isn't something really wrong with that picture?

[archenemy]

Ok, here's the one that gets me. 'Celibate' Catholic priests who provide marriage counseling. Isn't something really wrong with that picture?

 

In my current job, I am proposing changes to a huge organizational hierarchy tool. I have never built one. But I can provide excellent consulting on the project based on what I have learned about other processes like this one, other processes I have built, and the specific needs of this process.

 

And don't you know, marriage has very little to do with sex anyway.