Cheap Chinese Knockoffs

[tivoli_mike]

Actually has to do w/ Snowshoes from MSR but I am wondering if folks have run into other gear...

 

Seattle P-I

 

The Insider: White House notes Cascade woe

 

CHINESE SNOWSHOES DRAW ATTENTION: Last month, Cascade Designs Inc. filed a lawsuit against a Chinese company for allegedly producing snowshoes that are exact knockoffs of those made by the Seattle outdoor gear company at its factory in Sodo.

 

The case is now getting some attention from the Bush administration. Last week, Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez mentioned the woes of Cascade Designs in a speech on new initiatives to help fight intellectual property theft.

 

"Cascade is known for developing some of the most innovative outdoor gear in the world, with their snowshoes retailing at $130 a pair. The Chinese knockoff was being sold for $15," Gutierrez wrote in a printed copy of his remarks.

 

"Cascade has also reported pirates so bold that they attend trade shows to measure and snap digital photos of products they wish to copy. Our goal is clear -- this administration is committed to stopping trade in pirated and counterfeit goods."

 

Cascade Designs Vice President of Marketing Jeff Bowman said representatives of the Chinese company, United Industrial Ltd., have orally agreed to stop violating the snowshoe patents. But he added that the discussions have not progressed further.

 

"We sent them a document to formalize that agreement, but a signed copy has not yet been returned to us," Bowman said last week. "On Monday, I asked the Chinese about the status of them signing the document, and they responded that they were still reviewing it."

[EWolfe]

They tried to sell me a cheap Mike Layton knockoff out of a van near White Center last year, but i could tell the difference right away.

[Dru]

Pretty soon you'll be able to make your own knockoffs in a fab lab.

[Thinker]

There were a ton of Chinese (and Korean and other Asian) knock off products at the OR Summer Expo this year. That stuff was one of my primary goals to see going into the rat maze.

 

It *is* amazing to see how similar some of those products are to the things the major manufacturers copied from some small company somewhere else...and then tweaked slightly to mfg themselves.

[cj001f]

There were a ton of Chinese (and Korean and other Asian) knock off products

If the same people make it, is it a knockoff? Italy's had problems for years with workers at designer goods factories making a few extra for outside sale. You usually spot them being sold on the street by N. Africans for 10-20% of retail. "Marketing" and "managing" aren't as difficult as some would like to think.

[Thinker]

Good question. An acquaintence of mine is an officer on container ships that dock in various Chinese ports. One of the highlights is the 'merchants' who come abord with various wares from 'the factory'.

 

Who really knows of those TNF jackets and packs are factory 2nds, over runs that ran out the back door, or true knock offs that were sewn by the janitor's mother and 9 year old daughter based on a pattern from a genuine article they disassembled and copied.

[EWolfe]

You get what you pay for.

 

A feng shui principle is:

if you buy something for less than true worth

that price will be taken sevenfold from you.

[cj001f]

You get what you pay for.

No more bro/brah NA reps, Woohoo!

[Dru]

You get what you pay for.

 

A feng shui principle is:

if you buy something for less than true worth

that price will be taken sevenfold from you.

 

If you replace the "less" with "more" it sounds like the standard music industry mark up.

[olyclimber]

Would anyone here be interested in a couple of Rolex watches and Northface coats?

[Thinker]

I've got a great deal here on some Northface watches and Rolex coats, too.

[selkirk]

Good question. An acquaintence of mine is an officer on container ships that dock in various Chinese ports. One of the highlights is the 'merchants' who come abord with various wares from 'the factory'.

 

Who really knows of those TNF jackets and packs are factory 2nds, over runs that ran out the back door, or true knock offs that were sewn by the janitor's mother and 9 year old daughter based on a pattern from a genuine article they disassembled and copied.

 

I ran into a poor guy trying to return his "North Face" jacket to the store in downtown seattle a few years ago, with complaints that it wasn't waterproofed, and that the seems leaked. The guy at the counter picked up felt a seems and realize none of them were taped or sealed, which is why it leaked like sieve. Poor guy paid someone way too much for nylon jacket with a north face logo.

[knelson]

...The guy at the counter picked up felt a seems and realize none of them were taped or sealed, which is why it leaked like sieve. Poor guy paid someone way too much for nylon jacket with a north face logo.

 

Sound like the guy should've returned it to REI. I'm pretty sure the folks at the counter there wouldn't have been able to detect that subtle "design flaw."

[murraysovereign]

If the same people make it, is it a knockoff? Italy's had problems for years with workers at designer goods factories making a few extra for outside sale...

 

Argentina had this problem back in the late 80s - every time the government ordered another run of currency at the mint, the workers would print a double set, and keep the duplicate bills for themselves and their families. The government was having a hell of a time trying to get inflation under control and couldn't figure out why nothing was working, until a bank clerk spotted two bills with the same serial numbers, and they soon realized there was possibly twice as much money floating around as there should have been

 

So if it's made at the mint, is it counterfeit?

 

And I've had a handful of people bring in "North Fake" jackets for warranty - usually they bought them from some guy in the parking lot at Costco or Wal-Mart. They're pretty convincing, flimsy $10.00 pieces of crap, just like regular North Face product - the only sure way to tell they're not "real" is the missing seam tape.

[snoboy]

It does make you wonder though... are the MSR versions really worth $130?

[olyclimber]

"worth" has nothing to do with it. the retail cost is the highest they think they can get away with charging and still have people buy them.

[Camilo]

If this isn't obvious to most people, many companies have a lot invested in product development. This means that the company has spent a considerable amount of time and money developing and marketing a product. All the ripoffs have to do is copy said product and sell it for a little more than it costs to make. The innovator has to keep a higher price to try to recoup the development costs.

 

It's also funny how little the Chinese government does to curb these practices, but then supports protections of Chinese IP. I saw this recently in a story that advertising giant Weiden & Kennedy was ruled against in a Chinese court for developing a commercial with similar artwork to a Chinese artist. They had to pay up and stop running the ad.

[cj001f]

If this isn't obvious to most people, many companies have a lot invested in product development. This means that the company has spent a considerable amount of time and money developing and marketing a product. All the ripoffs have to do is copy said product and sell it for a little more than it costs to make. The innovator has to keep a higher price to try to recoup the development costs.

That business model isn't so applicable to the Outdoor industry where a very small budget goes to R & D, and a very large budget goes to marketing.

[murraysovereign]

"worth" has nothing to do with it. the retail cost is the highest they think they can get away with charging and still have people buy them...

 

...which is pretty much the dictionary definition of "worth", when applied to retail products. If you want to talk about what something is "worth" in a moral sense, that's an entirely diferrent discussion altogether. But in terms of a buyer/seller relationship, if $130 is the most people are willing to pay for these snowshoes, then that's what they're worth.

 

The larger issue here has to do with protection of copyrights. Why would any company engage in the costly and time-consuming process of developing new products if they knew their new product would immediately be boot-legged by some guy with no more "R&D" input than a digital camera and a tape measure. Would any of us keep going to work day after day if we knew someone else was going to be cashing the paycheques? Protection of copyrights is as important as protection of any other form of property, and without that protection Cascade's snowshoes wouldn't even exist, because no-one would be stupid enough to develop the designs and materials and production technologies needed to produce them, so the question of whether they're "worth" $130 would be moot.

[Camilo]

If this isn't obvious to most people, many companies have a lot invested in product development. This means that the company has spent a considerable amount of time and money developing and marketing a product. All the ripoffs have to do is copy said product and sell it for a little more than it costs to make. The innovator has to keep a higher price to try to recoup the development costs.

That business model isn't so applicable to the Outdoor industry where a very small budget goes to R & D, and a very large budget goes to marketing.