Anderl Heckmair

[mike1]

They were mountaineers, nuf said....

Is Heinrich still alive?

[MisterMo]

I think some people are misunderstanding my point

 

I'm not saying Heckmair was running death camps

 

I would compare his transgression to the incident with Ben Moon appearing in a cigarette commercial. Not all potential sponsors are worthwhile sponsors. Free gear and $$$ comes at a price and that price is your reputation and image.

 

To sit in one time and culture and pass judgement on another time and culture is to tread on the very thinnest of ice. Wars serve to cloud the issues further; right and wrong in wartime is very much determined by who is the winner and who is the loser.

 

Best first spend a bunch of time trying to imagine yourself as a young man in mid depression prewar Germany. Just how do you think you would have conducted yourself?

 

Your point appears to be that Heckmair transgressed by his association (however minor)with the Nazi Government.

 

My point is that he and a few million other Germans transgressed mainly by being on the losing side. And no, I don't condone Nazi outrages one bit.

[treknclime]

Olympics Trivia:

 

Which mountaineers have received an Olympic Gold Medal...and who were they awarded by?

[Alpine_Tom]

That was the climbers of the Eiger nordwand, and they were awarded by A. H. himself.

 

It's important to keep in mind that, though Herrer had a Nazi flag in his pack during the Eiger climb, in 1938 the Nazi party was a patriotic party, and Hitler was a leader who'd restored Germany's self-respect, not the man who started WW2 and instigated the death camps. There's nothing uniquely German about Antisemitism, after all.

I had a professor at Annapolis who was a German Naval Officer, and was old enough to have been in the Hitler Youth. At the time, he said, it was about what the boy scouts to kids today, there was nothing sinister about it to them.

[Dru]

my uncle got drafted at 16 and sent off to fight the russians on the eastern front...

 

by 1938 they had already had kristallnacht and so on

heckmair obviously realized the ethical dimensions. no doubt one of the reasons he was able to survive the war was his cushy mtn training post far from the battles, which being a hero of the eiger probably helped him get

 

but he did see fit to admit he'd erred after the war. it sounds like some of you guys are thinking he shouldn't have?

[MisterMo]

but he did see fit to admit he'd erred after the war. it sounds like some of you guys are thinking he shouldn't have?

 

No, no, no. It is to his credit that he did. People do make mistakes and poor judgements after all; it is the better among us who own up to them, take responsibility, learn from them and such.

 

For you or I to make the same judgement however, looking through a window from a wholly different time and society, is another matter. All we can judge, I submit, is whether or not his conduct was consistent with the mores of the society and period of time in which he lived.

[treknclime]

I think Messner was on the Olympic Gold list, too. Not sure if others were awarded metals, but the Eiger team and Messner are the only ones I know of. Surely there are other mountaineers/climbers deseving of a gold metal, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

Watching the Eiger Sanction...tomorrow.

[Dru]

when a fascist dictator takes over your country you don't have to wait 70 years to figure out that it's wrong and that he's bad news.

 

same goes for all the leftists who kissed stalin's ass just because he called himself a communist

[MisterMo]

when a fascist dictator takes over your country you don't have to wait 70 years to figure out that it's wrong and that he's bad news.

 

We're getting off poor Anderl but...

 

By way of analogy in the US we're faced with some similar issues just now...not to equate our government with the Nazis, but maybe there's a thing or two going on that I have moral issues with: At what points do I speak up & how loudly, at what points do I just roll with it in silent disagreement etc...etc...etc.... Maybe those are complex questions, especially if I'm in the minority.

 

Come 70 years from now some of those things may clearly be seen as wrong, but, I don't think that gives a person 70 years from now any moral prerogative to second guess my choices today.

 

As for Stalin, he killed how many million Russians in decades of purges often for the most nebulous of reasons? Not exactly a political climate that encouraged one to stand out in a crowd, was it?

[cj001f]

no doubt one of the reasons he was able to survive the war was his cushy mtn training post far from the battles, which being a hero of the eiger probably helped him get

Gee, what happend to Ludwig Vorg?

 

Your still evaluating his actions based on what came later - not what had happened before 1938. At the time America was mired in Depression, had regular lynchings, and a President trying all he could to usurp democracy. Hitler didn't appear as tarnished at the time.

[Dru]

Beckey had one of those cushy mountain training posts too.

[cj001f]

Beckey had one of those cushy mountain training posts too.

Persons with prior skill were generally used in training roles in the US unless they volunteered. Commercial airline pilots generally flew cargo routes - the US didn't have quite the pressure as Germany

[catbirdseat]

...a President trying all he could to usurp democracy. Hitler didn't appear as tarnished at the time.

You have an interesting opinion on FDR- one not shared by many.

[cj001f]

You have an interesting opinion on FDR- one not shared by many.

What, exactly, is trying to pack the supreme court?

[JayB]

I think that Carl's view is consistent with the historical consensus concerning the court packing episode.

[Roger]

What, exactly, is trying to pack the supreme court?

I guess you could call it undermining the judiciary, but not exactly usurping "democracy," since the FDR proposal would have required approval by Congress, which didn't happen, despite the fact that the Ds had the run of the place (indicative of how bad an idea it was).

 

One could argue that FDR's point with the court-packing proposal was that democracy was actually being undermined by the Court, because new laws enacted by a majority of the people's elected representatives were consistently being ruled unconstitutional in 5-4 decisions by conservative justices. Ironically, back in the 1930s the conservative jurists were the "activists."

[Zoran]

Discussion could continue after reviewing "new" facts in great article published in Gripped magazine.

It was hard to read very disturbing stories about Jewish climbers who were forced to put Jewish star as a mark before entering climbing areas.

Some of them were murdered in Aushwitz or other death camps.

Article:

Climbing for Hitler, 1921–1945 by David Chaundy-Smart.

I was thinking I know something about climbing history between two wars but I was very wrong.

Z

Edited February 17, 2005 by Zoran