Mammut Twilight vs. Beal Joker and 6mm static

[Blake]

Looking for your rope input here.

My current situation: I've got a 10.3mm 60m for cragging, but it's too heavy for alpine and glacier slogs, so I'll need to invest in some more ropes so i'm not dependent on others. After going over different rope systems for alpine climbs where there is a substantial approach and snow/ice crossings are likely, I think i've decided upon one of the two options. Mammut Twilight Twins 60m 7.5mm total 76 g/m or a Beal Joker (60m, 9.1mm 53 g/m) and 6mm static rap line (23 g/m), these weights come out as a tie.

 

After paying for 70m of static line, the costs for both is about the same as well. I've never used twins before, so I don't really know what to expect as far as dealing with rapping/belaying 7.5s. Anyhow, advice or ideas would be great to get. Pretty much my priorities for this are weight, function, and cost.

 

A couple other bits of info: that Beal Joker is certified for use as a twin or half rope as well, and comes in 70m. If full-length raps aren't as important as some make them out to be I could just go with this, and forget the 6mm static.

If I went with the 7.5s, I think I could use just one of them for any glacier stuff, and so I wouldn't need to get a "glacier specific" rope somewhere down the line.

 

Thanks all.

[DPS]

I have used a 9.4 mm rope with a 7 mm tag line with good results. If necessary, the follower can jug on it, while the leader hauls with the tag line. Can't do that with twins. (Or at least I would not want to.)

[Thrill]

I'd go with the Beal. just my opinion

[John Frieh]

I kinda have both setups (I use halfs not twins).

 

For routes that the second can follow with a pack on and/or I can lead with a pack on (if we take 2 packs) or a rope getting cut is a major concern I take the halfs. Generally ice routes and moderate alpine rock routes.

 

For routes that the second can not follow with a pack or (more likely) I can't lead wearing my pack (so the second is stuck with both and therefore will jug) I take the single + tag line. Generally harder rock routes.

 

With that said my partner jugged one of my 8.1s this summer while I hauled the packs on the other and he didn't whine too much. Though I wore those 70s out in about 6 months.

 

I would say if you go with the twin rope system I would steer you towards halfs. I've owned twins and they are okay but halfs are better IMO.

 

Twight has an excellent discussion on this subject in his book.

[Alpinfox]

Is this Beal Joker a single rope? (edit: Yup, it's a single). If so, that is the thinnest, lightest single I've heard of, the previous winner being the Mammut Evolution 9.2mm.

 

I like single lines for rock climbing and twin or half ropes for ice (though I haven't done much ice). A lot of people (the Euros) like half ropes for rock.

Edited January 18, 2005 by Alpinfox

[Bogen]

I just returned my Beal 9.4 70 meter stinger because after 6 months, it wasn't as water resistant as my 8 year old Mammut 10.5. I didn't really like the 70m setup much, and I did have a 6mm rap cord to go with it. I still love my 6mm cord, and it goes great with my 50 m 10.5 or by itself as a rap line when soloing. I replaced the beal with double 60 meter 8.0 mm mammut phoenix setup. Mammut has by far been the best ropes I've owned, and it is good to be back to the standard 60 meter setup. Double 60's won't let you down, whereas when constrained by the thicker 70, or the 50, I was always troubled by some logistic bullshit or another.

[John Frieh]

I agree... Beal ropes don't hold their dry rope treatment as well as other companies (Blue Water) but their impact force smokes Mammuts which IMO should be the first or second thing you look at in an alpine rope. I just retreat mine more often (but I also own ropes from Blue Water and Mammut).

[Blake]

Is this Beal Joker a single rope? (edit: Yup, it's a single). If so, that is the thinnest, lightest single I've heard of, the previous winner being the Mammut Evolution 9.2mm.

 

 

I think you mean Mammut Revelation. The Revelation and the Bluewater Dominator seem to be tied for the 2nd lghtest single, @ 55 g/m.

 

One downside to the Joker is that I can't find it (60m) for sale anywhere in the US.

[NYC007]

With Beal it depends which dry treatment the cord comes with most come with drycover , which is only the sheath that is treated, but the goldendry is a full on treatment in and out.

Only thing that is a drawback with the skinny single cords seems to be that the sheaths arent at thick at most so they wear pretty quick compared to say a 9.0 rope designed to be used as a half.

The Beal Ice line can be used as a twin or a half, that was the new BD catalog states. So if you go with doubles or twins these are nice cords. I have a pair and they are great, they are single pick also, which is nice.

[John Frieh]

I trashed a pair of ice lines on a handful of routes over 6 months (only jugged on once) so unless you have money to burn or are going to only climb ice you might want to look at something a little thicker... I have a pair of 8.6s from Blue Water that are wearing nicely but still aren't that heavy. Guess it depends on what you have in store for them...

[Rafael_H]

Age old. You'll end up having both setups - thick/thin + dbl - sooner or later if you keep climbing

[ADKMan]

The Beal Joker should be available at Alaska Mountaineering and Hiking sometime later this month. They will be stocking the 70m goldendry version.

 

http://www.alaskamountaineering.com/Product.cfm?id=694

[Blake]

The Beal Joker should be available at Alaska Mountaineering and Hiking sometime later this month. They will be stocking the 70m goldendry version.

 

http://www.alaskamountaineering.com/Product.cfm?id=694

 

60m available anywhere?

 

Also, If i go with the 60m single and a rap line, how much longer does the rap line need to be than the dynamic rope to account for rope stretch as i get towards teh bottom? (assuming the knot is centered at the top)

[John Frieh]

(length of dynamic) x (% elongation)= length of elongation

 

Add length of elongation to length of dynamic and this will tell you how long you need your static to be. Add on a few meters on to that value for rap anchor material.

[treknclime]

Are you going with all 70's? Or...are you going with a mix of different lengths...depending on the objective?

[John Frieh]

70s for life! Link 'em up!

 

Edit: so I should clarify a little... 70s for life in the alpine. 70s at many cragging areas is just extra weight... you should scope pitch lengths prior (if possible) and determine if you can link pitches are not. Good examples: Most pitches at smith don't break 35 m so you can link 2 in one. Same story on many routes at WA Pass and city of rocks. But in other areas (sawtooths) pitches are closer to 40-50 m so linking isn't an option and you end up with extra weight if you bring 70s. So... likely you will own a number of different lengths.

 

And one time in the alpine you might want 60s is if you plan on simulclimbing... generally people half a rope (one person tie to end and other person ties into ends) to simul. Doing this w/ a 60 is cool but with a 70 you are almost too far out of verbal contact if the route is windy (good example N ridge of stuie) a 60 will facilitate easier contact.

 

So... generally I reach for the 70s but from time to time I bring a 60.

Edited January 19, 2005 by NOLSe

[treknclime]

Niiiiccce. Sounds schweeet! Thx.

[Blake]

Does the 10 extra potential meters in length per pitch and on rappels for alpine really make itself worth the extra carry-in weight in your opinion? (roughly 1.5 lbs)

[Bill_Simpkins]

Sometimes I use a 60 m 9.6mm Edelweiss Laser in the hills. Pretty light and a good rope.

Most of the time though I use a 30m or a 50m 8.3 mm Edelweiss. I'm more than content with a 50m rope.

Everytime I've brough two ropes, I always rapped by a pair of slings or a tree half way down!

There are 1000 ways to skin a duck. Best advice I can give: get a whole bunch of ropes, and do your research before the climb. Bring what you need.

If I had to pick only one rope, it would be a 60m 9.5ish mm rope.