Blakej Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I've been thinking about getting some of the fairly cheeper straight shaft tools for starting out(I'm mostly just interested in a little alpine ice and I'm told straight shaft would be fine) are the straight shafts terrible if I'm interested in getting into drytooling too. It seems like they might effect the direction of pull and make hanging onto a little edge a bit more sketchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I know a few people who use cobras, quarks, and top machines. those arent quite straight shaft, but probly the closest I would use for drytoolin. Im sure anything is possible and you could get away with it for a while. Tho It kind of sounds like bringing your ski;s to snowboarding school or using your golf clubs to play baseball. If you are interested in drytooling for the sake of drytooling, I would look into one of the tools I listed above (more for all around ice/mixed/dt). And if you REALLY want to get into it....buck up and get some ergo's or fusions. Ergos do well on ice. Fusions, not so hot. DONT GET THE TRANGO CAPTAIN HOOKS!!!!!! They are cheap, but weigh a ton and the pick is so limited for wedging into cracks. Part of the fun of drytooling for me is using the tools in a creative manner to get myself up the rock. I think using a straight shaft would take a big part of the creativity and movement away from the activity. Just my .02cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 The grivel alp wings are fairly straight for alpine but a little curved for steep ice. Seems like a good compromise for alpine and moderate ice climbing. It has a little pinky rest that is removable for snow climbing too. With this pinky rest, it should be OK for drytooling, not that I know squat about drytooling. "if at first you don't succeed, blame someone else and seek counseling" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don_Serl Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I've been thinking about getting some of the fairly cheeper straight shaft tools for starting out(I'm mostly just interested in a little alpine ice and I'm told straight shaft would be fine) are the straight shafts terrible if I'm interested in getting into drytooling too. It seems like they might effect the direction of pull and make hanging onto a little edge a bit more sketchy. straight shafts in 2004? seems like buying a 1984 Oldsmobile Century for commuting, or a dot-matrix printer. there are 3 long-term dependable ice-tool manufacturers: Black Diamond, Charlet, and Grivel. each of them provides a relatively simple, gently-curved-shafted tool which would be fine on water-ice, decent on mixed, and a pleasure in the alpine: the Rage, the Aztar, and the Light Wing or Alp Wing. [simond seem to have their great moments, but never have quite broken thru. i got to briefly use a Vautour last weekend, and was quite impressed.] the key advantage of the bent or curved shaft in the alpine is that your hand gets less pressed against the surface, so u stay warmer. if money is a really big issue, go for an older "good" tool, not a newer poor design. BD Black Prophets long had a great reputation, and were very popular in the USA, so there ought to be a fair number available used; the Shrike was also solid. Charlet's Quasar (my personal favorite from the '90s, by far, which i used on lots of alpine ice faces and gullies) was a big step forward on ice altho the knob interfered with shaft-plunging in snow; the Charlet Pulsar was the earlier standard, altho kinda heavy. Grivel's Rambo pulled people up some wicked routes. going waaaay back, the Simond Chacal was effective, but is dated now; the Piranha worked well and was lighter; the Naja didn't have enuf "hook" for my liking... the direction-of-pull issue is a red herring, as we can see from the Grivel Monster. for mixed, based on very limited experience, i can say: 1) it's far easier to hang on a bent shaft than straight, 2) more shaft clearance is better than less for getting the pick-tip onto and/or into holds, and 3) when movement gets complicated, leashes get in the way - but i'm not strong enuf to do without. all considered, straight shafts are not a good choice for mixed. bottom line, 1st choice ought to be "basic modern"; 2nd choice could be "technical old". avoid "dubious", old or new! how's it go? "the pain of poor performance lives on long after the thrill of low price is gone" cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakej Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 thanks for the advice. I'll have to keep my eyes on the market for a steal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 second ascent had a pair of alp wings for around $130 each. They also have other grivel straight shafted super couymeaur. (spelling way off) They also have tons of other tools pretty cheap there. You will find a good ice tool there. (I don't work there BTW) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Before they had bent shaft tools and all the latest leashless dry tooling set ups, there were only straight shaft tools. It didn't stop people from doing some mixed climbing and dry tooling with them. As Don so eloquently put it, it is taking a step back in advancement. One thing to consider, is that new ice tools usually hold their value pretty good. You can spend $150 for some straight shaft tools and not get any money back trying to resell them or spend $400 on some new modern tools and if you didn't like ice climbing you could get rid of them really easy at $200 or more. So the way I look at it is you are better off just shelling out the coin for some more modern tools, also it will make the expericence much more enjoyable. But if money an issue I got some old Charle Moser Pulsar I'll sell ya for cheap, yeah they are staight shaft tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 One thing to consider, is that new ice tools usually hold their value pretty good. You can spend $150 for some straight shaft tools and not get any money back trying to resell them or spend $400 on some new modern tools and if you didn't like ice climbing you could get rid of them really easy at $200 or more. So the way I look at it is you are better off just shelling out the coin for some more modern tools is this the "new math" option 1: buy at $150, sell at $0 = lose $150 option 2: buy at $400, sell at $200 = lose $200 ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 if money is a really big issue, go for an older "good" tool, not a newer poor design. BD Black Prophets long had a great reputation, and were very popular in the USA, so there ought to be a fair number available used thanks for the advice. I'll have to keep my eyes on the market for a steal. If money's the issue, I'll sell you a pair of BD Black Prophet's for $125 (with good leashes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 One thing to consider, is that new ice tools usually hold their value pretty good. You can spend $150 for some straight shaft tools and not get any money back trying to resell them or spend $400 on some new modern tools and if you didn't like ice climbing you could get rid of them really easy at $200 or more. So the way I look at it is you are better off just shelling out the coin for some more modern tools is this the "new math" option 1: buy at $150, sell at $0 = lose $150 option 2: buy at $400, sell at $200 = lose $200 ! Sorry I forgot I have to spell it out for some of ya . My point is a $50 more potential loss you then you get to try out ice climbing with some real nice tools, instead of taking some old clunkers to the crags to experiment with. I know funny math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 take a shot at some of the tools on ebay ... currently up for sale are Quarks, Quasrs, Top Machines, original Machines, Vipers, Rages, bent BP's, bent Shrikes and more .... if you get them and decide it's not your bag ... chances are you could still sell them for close to what you pay for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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