Vietnam and Iraq

[selkirk]

Can anybody name 1 similarity between Iraq and Vietnam other than the fact that both are apparent cluster 's?

 

Specifically about what it's going to take to "win the peace" in Iraq, and why we could never "win the hearts and minds" in Vietnam........

[Stonehead]

False pretensions leading to escalation of conflict:

 

Vietnam--Gulf of Tonkin affair

Iraq--trumped up WMD and other intelligence but more specifically using 911 as pretext for rush to war

[gotterdamerung]

I think you are wrong, and I think trying to make connections between Vietnam and Iraq is counter productive.

 

Reliable intelligence not acted on quickly enough. WMD in the bottom of the Tigris or in Syria. Greenpeace complaining about draining the Tigris to look for said weapons. Lack of public support for an escalation of the conflict into neighboring middle eastern countries. Election year politics. Fickle support for a serious conflict with long lasting ramifications. Uneducated water walkers. It's like Kurtz said. "If I had ten divisions of those men, this war would be over in 3 months".

[Dave_Schuldt]

CAN YOU SAY QUICK SAND?

[Stonehead]

Perhaps my point of view is that, perhaps not. But in many respects, one could view the Vietnam conflict and the current Iraqi situation as ones involving self-determination of a people freed from the real or imagined shackles of Western power or other occupying powers.

 

You see this same pattern around the world. It is my understanding (which could be wrong) that many of the wars of liberation on the African continent during the 60's and which had a strong Marxist component was largely fueled by the self-determination of the indigenous peoples. One could also make the case for the Communist Revolution in China, a country which had to suffer the insult of buckling to the European powers during the Opium War and other uprisings.

 

The following are words spoken by a little brown man in a faraway country:

 

"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"

 

This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free.

 

The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights." Those are undeniable truths.

 

Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice. In the field of politics, they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty.

 

They have enforced inhuman laws; they have set up three distinct political regimes in the North, the Center and the South of Vietnam in order to wreck our national unity and prevent our people from being united.

 

They have built more prisons than schools. They have mercilessly slain our patriots- they have drowned our uprisings in rivers of blood. They have fettered public opinion; they have practised obscurantism against our people. To weaken our race they have forced us to use opium and alcohol.

 

In the fields of economics, they have fleeced us to the backbone, impoverished our people, and devastated our land.

 

They have robbed us of our rice fields, our mines, our forests, and our raw materials. They have monopolised the issuing of bank-notes and the export trade.

 

They have invented numerous unjustifiable taxes and reduced our people, especially our peasantry, to a state of extreme poverty.

 

They have hampered the prospering of our national bourgeoisie; they have mercilessly exploited our workers."

 

--snip--

 

--Declaration of Independence, Ho Chi Minh, 2 September 1945, Democratic Republic of Vietnam (subsequently renamed The Socialist Republic of Vietnam)

 

 

Ok, so that has all the markings of a fledging communist. Perhaps they assume the mantle of self-determinism as their modus operandi. Now, I'm not in support of their position, only trying to understand the situation. You cannot neutralize the opposition by merely fighting against them. Sometimes that only serves to strengthen the opposition to fight harder. What I'm saying is that perhaps we should address the root cause of much of the problem rather than surgically attacking the various wasp nests of opposition. If we don't and instead pursue a policy of much bloodshed, then we may win some battles but lose the war.

[glacierdog]

Vietnam and Iraq have nothing in common other than they are both wars. In Vietnam, we committed insufficient numbers of troops with no clear mission, then fettered them to a certain area of operation. "War by the numbers." Iraqi Freedom is unique from any operation in history. 3 weeks, we toppled a regime, and it only took that long because we were learning the logistics of such fast paced warfare as we went. Still less than a thousand deaths after more than a year of fighting. The new infrastructure is already in place. WTF do you people know about it??? Many Iraqi's are grateful for what we have done. A good friend of mine is Airborne, just spent a little more than a year there. He saw it first hand. How bout ya'll grow some testicles? Seriously, can anyone here deny that Saddam Hussein was a tyrannical bastard who needed to be removed from power? We had the ability to do it, so as far as I'm concerned, we also had the responsibility.

[Stonehead]

Perhaps very little but I believe that the situation shouldn't be viewed as just a military solution. I believe that lessons were learned from Vietnam and that new approach was taken with respect to Iraq. Still there are many issues to address. Bremer did make some mistakes such as shutting down the Shi'te newspaper and disbanding the Iraqi army. It does seem to be a process of successive approximation, putting the major plan in place and making dynamic adjustments as needed.

 

If you reread my post, you might comprehend my point of view better. I make no statements in support or in opposition to the Iraqi situation as it currently stands, merely stating facts as I perceive them. No statements about what the military should have done or how they should have done it. No statements concerning Saddam Hussein.

 

I believe it's a more informed and enlightened approach to make comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam in terms of the root problem, which appeared to be the self-determinism of the people in Vietnam and similarily in Iraq. Somehow, in Vietnam, all of the people came to be viewed as gooks and slants, in other words, as the enemy or in some way inferior whether they were Viet Cong or not. I see something similar happening in Iraq. There is a sense of superiority in some Americans as they treat the Iraqis. Is that not some of the problem? Or is it too painful to acknowledge some of the truth as the rest of the world sometimes sees us?

[Billygoat]

It's all about money. And if you don't think so, why do you think the rich guys running our country set up and support all these dictators in the first place? I went to school with these guys. Don't think for a moment that they see you as anything more than tools for their ends and fodder for their profits.

 

G-Dog and Mike, I appreciate the position you are in but don't blind yourself with rhetoric. When it doesn't make sense look for the money...

[glacierdog]

I can't help what the people's in power motives are, but I can see the good that comes from it. I know that fortunes have been made off this war. But I can't do anything about that. What I can do is continue to fight the good fight and hope that others will follow suit. If everyone comes to believe that the only reason we fight is to line the pockets of our superiors, then we won't long have a fighting force worth reckoning with. Already, morale is lower than I've ever seen it. How do you think we feel? Our friends are dying, and all we hear from the states is how misguided and pointless the war is. We HAVE accomplished something great. If people took advantage of the situation to make themselves richer, well, karma is a motherfucker.

[glacierdog]

I see what you mean, Stonehead. But what would that take? Wouldn't it require changing the culture itself? The middle east has never seen peace. I can't pretend to know enough about sociology to postulate on what it would require to alter the mindset of the groups of people who would see us destroyed. My hope is that we have planted a seed there. Time will tell.

[Billygoat]

God GD, this is right where we left off before you shipped out. All I know for sure is that time will tell. I believe you and the others are doing your best, and I am behind that. Watch yourself and do what you think is right.

 

[glacierdog]

I know right? Little deja vue'. Well, much appreciated Goat.

[Stonehead]

Yeah, actually the same here. I don't know enough about the world as it is or if I could even begin to understand it objectively. This is one of the rare moments when I try to figure out what the hell is going on, to see the grand picture. And you're right, only time will tell. Maybe your great grandkids will learn about the liberation of Iraq and the growth of individual rights as we understand it. The Iraqis don't have the benefit of our cultural heritage that fostered these rights but I don't believe that their cultural history would necessarily preclude them from a future as we know it. Definitely some cross-fertilization of the cultures would have to result but I suspect our contribution will be greater.

[Dave_Schuldt]

A 3 week war is one thing..... what comes later (years....) is what concerns me. I don't think we will stay long enough to do the job right.

[selkirk]

ok, as I started the thread here's my .02. First off has anyone ever read "The Ugly American"? fictional book but nails one of the problems about the way we approach foreign policy.

 

Like many other things when we see a problem we throw things at it. If it's a foreign problem it's generally either, money, troops or both.

 

Prior to vietnam the US approach to the area was large construction projects... Lets build them ports and infrastructure and they'll be happy. The problem was the average, common, uneducated citizen benefited very little, while the those who were already wealthy prosperous and educated benefited tremendously... The attempt was effectively trickle down economics. However this doesn't always work well. If you look at what makes people happy one of the key factors is how well off you are compared to your neighbour, or compared to the society, not how well off you are in absolute terms. Building a port makes the wealthy, wealthier and doesn't affect many other people. The communists at the same time, went in in a very different fashion. They planted rice with the workers in the villages, and improved the lives of the people in immediate, tangible, and undesrtandable ways. IMHO more troops wouldn't have won the war in Vietnam, just like it won't win the war in Iraq. To create a lasting peace you not only need to eliminate those people trying to kill you but prevent the recruitment of new ones. And it seems our primary focus in both wars was to get rid of the immediate threat with adressing it at it's source.

 

More money and more troops won't solve the threat. We need to change the way were percieved in that part of the world, in addition to bringing prosperity to it. It's insufficient to kill the terrorists and prevent the terrorists from striking, either domestically or internationally. Like vietnam, to win, were going to need to find a way to convince the populace as a whole, that were not a threat to them, or their way of life, and that the extreme islamic groups are. And in my opinion the message we sent with Iraq wasn't were not a threat to you, we can help you. But watch the out or we'll come after you. We may have gotten rid of saddam (granted one bad, despicable dude) but how many people did we alienate? I think we would have been much better served not invading, and sending in teachers and engineers to make the lives of each and ever person better in some fasion and show them that were not out to destroy their culture and their beliefs.

[Jim]

Unfortunately the Bushies are now more interested in the facade than reality. Over 700 people died in Iraq last month from insugent activity. Don't hear that on the CNN report. The US is only in control of portions of Bagdhad, broad portions of the country are back under local right-wing militia control. Most police stations for 70 miles around Baghdad are abandonded. Does anyone seriously think that meaningful elections are going to occur as scheduled in January? What a mess. What a rathole for our cash. And for what? The grand vision of a few neoconservatives.

 

My heart goes out to the grunts who are working their butts off in 110 deg heat in an untenable situation.

[selkirk]

I agree, more power to the people on the ground. Now that were they're we need to give them whatever resources they need to come home safe. Don't get me wrong, i'm not for a half assed military effort. I think the officers and soldiers on the ground are doing the best they can with a bad situation and should have anything and everything they need. I just think the policy makers at the top screwed up.