connecting 2 ropes

[dmuja]

For glacier travel - a team of 3. I thought we should take two 30 meter ropes and connect them (If one is enough, let me know). My question is: Do we tie 2 figure eights (one on each end where the ropes meet at the middle man) and connect them to the middle man's harness via one carabiner? OR do we tie the 2 ropes together first near the middle man using doublefisherman knots and then clip him into the rope near the knot (via alpinebutterfly or fig 8)??

 

Just wondering

 

Doug

[snoboy]

My question would by why do you want to use 2 x 30m?

 

Why not 1 x 50, or something simpler like that?

[dmuja]

Basically, it's what we already have on hand. I have these and a 60 meter 10.5 mil rope (heavy). I thought it would be easier to split the weight with 2 ropes amoung us..

[snoboy]

Hmm, well, if thats what you have, I would go with the figure eights. But, I would clip them in to the middle man's harness with two seperate biners (one per rope). I can imagine hypothetical situations where it would be nice for him to be able to unfasten one rope while staying firmly attached to the other...

[willstrickland]

Alright, that's a kind of bizarre scenario, and my first reaction would be to just tie each to the middle man with figure 8s (via biners like Sno says above).

 

BUT...after thinking about it, I would join the ropes and tie the middle man off to one side of the joint for this reason:

 

If one of the end members takes a crevasse fall, the other end member may be in a sufficient arrest/anchor position to hold the fallen climber. The middle person could then unclip from the joined ropes, and move to assists the end person. If the middle person is best placed to anchor, it doesn't matter how you do it, but if the end person is best placed...the middle might need to get free.

 

If you don't join the ropes and just connect them both to the middle person, you can't get the middle person free without some convoluted ropework shenanigans.

[dmuja]

Whoa, I'm glad I asked now for sure. I was leaning toward the fig8's on one biner, then possible cross loading issues had me thinking, then Sno convinced me to go with 2 biners, and now I'm definately leaning toward joining the ropes first per Will. BTW, so I take it that one 30m rope is not enough for a team of 3 ?

[snoboy]

On sober ( ) 2nd thought, I think will has a good point.

[catbirdseat]

So how exactly would it work, will? Join the ropes with a double fisherman's knot and then tie the middleman in with a butterfly knot to one side or the other of the fishermans?

[stinkyclimber]

dmuja, for all but the big glaciers on Rainier, the Wadd and up north, I'd just go with one 30m rope. Some may scoff, but really, most Cascade and South Coast glaciers really don't feature slots large enough to warrant lotsa rope. Just my opinion, and what I usually do (30-35m of 7mm static cord!), but to each their own.

[iain]

I take it you have some prusiks made out of dental floss

[Stephen_Ramsey]

Dmuja,

 

Have you considered recruiting a fourth climber? That would solve your problem. You could travel in two rope teams of two, each with a 30m rope. This is (arguably) faster and safer than a rope team of three. Andy Selters's book glacier travel has a good discussion of the advantages of traveling with two rope teams of two.

 

Stinky does make a good point about Cascades crevasses. Still, I personally wouldn't use static cord as a glacier rope under any circumstances. Just a personal preference.

 

As for whether one 30m rope would be enough for a rope team of three... well, in a pinch, you could make anything work. But if I'm traveling through crevasse country, I'd prefer to have 40m minimum, if climbing with three. I guess it mostly depends on where you plan to use it. Will it be some small minimally crevassed glacier remnant? Or a big, highly crevassed glacier on Rainier or Baker?

 

Cheers,

Steve Ramsey

Edited June 10, 2004 by Stephen_Ramsey

[stinkyclimber]

I take it you have some prusiks made out of dental floss

Nah, altho I considered it! Nope, 5mm seems to grab just fine, esp. in a klimhiest. I admit this isn't the safest, but it has worked the one time I tried it out. Mainly a set up for ski trips in the Coast where crevasse falls are rare and not usually that big, and if they happen, there is enough friction over a soft lip and from the sliding body of the person catching the fall that I don' think the impact forces are really that high.

[willstrickland]

Catbird...I'd probably do what you described. Maybe use flemish bend instead of fishermans, but it's just personal preference.

 

As for just going with a 3 on a single 30m rope, I wouldn't have issues with that approach unless there were alot of wide, open slots and suspect bridges where you were doing the "end around" to skirt crevasses. In that case you might want more than 15m between.

[fenderfour]

After reading the posts form more experienced climbers, I think you guys forgot one thing - What is dmuja's experience level? I would go out with a two man rope team, but I wouldn't recommend it to a first year climber. I certainly wouldn't recommend using a static rope to a new climber.

 

What is your experience level dmuja? I'm assuming you're pretty new since you are asking this question. For ease of use and everything else I would recommend that you take the heavy 10.5mm X 50m rope. You already know how to use this rope (I hope) and the weight isn't that big of a deal.

[Ireneo_Funes]

Seems to me that using just one rope would eliminate the extra potential failure points and opportunities for screwups that you'd have with two 30m ropes. If I had to choose between the options laid out, I'd probably go with the 60m myself, even though I wouldn't enjoy lugging the extra weight.

[dmuja]

I've been "hill walking" for 2 years in Washington, done Hood, Baker, and Adams, some crevass rescue practice, and roped glacier experience on mount Baker. My partners have about the same. We're planning on a *mid-week* DC climb on Rainier but also looking at some alt "moderate" routes too. I posted something on the "partner" board but got no replies - I figured everyone was bored with the DC route or hate the crowds. I figured the DC was our best chance at making the summit given our experience level but I also didn't want to be crowded right off the route - thus mid week.

[Bill_Simpkins]

In my opinion, a 30m rope for 3 people will do just fine for DC. You can have 30 feet between each person and still have 20 feet left over on each end(minus knots).

Or 35 between and 15 left over, or 40 and 10.

Plenty!

I use a 30m 8.3mm Edelweiss for glacier travel and light alpine rock.

However, Fenderfour had a good idea and a good point for the 50m rope for your group.

 

 

[bDubyaH]

I agree with Fender Four. Just go with the single larger rope. I'm biased though, cause the crevasses up here are generally huge. The "extra weight" won't matter too much, I'll take a dry treated larger rope over a small non-treated rope any day on a glacier. Plus if you decide to head up a slightly more difficult route a longer rope gives you more room to climb through/around/over difficult areas. my$0.02

[Winter]

I've climbed Liberty Ridge and Ingraham Headwall with three on an 8mm, 30m line. I wouldn't think twice about this set up again unless you think you'll need to pitch it out. Granted I was stupid enough to almost die on Liberty Ridge so you may not want to take my advice.

[ryland_moore]

I agree with Bill as well. One 30 m. 8.3 mm is what I use and is plenty on Rainier unless pitching it out. I have used a 30 m rope on Emmons and Ingraham Direct plenty of times. I did use a 50 m 8.8mm on Denali with three to a rope, however.

 

I guess you still need to factor in experience level and glacier conditions for end-running, but not at this time of year. Maybe in August up on Rainier you will have to do a lot of end running around crevasses.