MysticNacho Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Heres an anchor question for y'all: Say you're belaying a leader. You've got your standard three bomb-proof pieces for your anchor, and say one more slotted for directional pull. If the leader falls, won't the one directional piece take all the force of the fall, (after the weight of the belayer takes some) instead of transfering the load to the other three pieces? Granted the other three pieces take some, but it seems like the bottom directional piece would take the majority of the force from a fall from above. If that piece failed, wouldn't you just rip out the top three pieces because they are not slotted for upwards pull? Just 'wonderin. -Nacho Quote
Dru Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Cams, bolts, trees, slung threads, and pitons are multi directional. I suggest you use them by preference. That said, the correct answer to your question is cut the rope, go home, write a bestseller about it. Quote
Terminal_Gravity Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Yeah, nacho you're right. But look at the big picture. So, after your weight is factored in and your leader manages to fall so hard as to make the directional fail and you still rocket upward bad enough to rip your 3 points. What was the point that held while all this happened... his running pro, which took twice the force of his fall. I'd say it was well tested and you could count on it to hold while you fumbled back on to the rock. Quote
Bronco Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 unless your leader is falling on at least 2, perfectly equalized pieces, his pro placed on lead would rip before your directional, as long as you placed it well. The force on your directional would be approximalty half of what the force would be on the pro placed on lead. *or almost exactly what TG said* [ 06-18-2002, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Bronco ] Quote
JayB Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 The upward force generated by a leader fall directed through a piece above the anchor will not (allowing for the freakish exception - mini-me belaying Elvis on a 100 footer or something) generate sufficent force to rip out a well placed directional anchor. If the piece that your leader has placed and fallen upon is strong enough to generate this much upward force, chances are it'll hold the fall and your anchors will not have to withstand the force of the leader falling directly upon them. Even the force of his fall rips out the directional piece and the piece of pro he placed, in the end you're no worse of for having placed it. It sounds like you already know this, but what you're really protecting against here is a scenario in which the upward force of the leader's fall lifts you above the pro you've set for your anchors and in turn disrupts them, the pieces the leader has set above the anchor to protect himself fail, and then the disrupted anchor-pieces rip out when the force of his fall loads the anchors directly after he has fallen past the belay, and the two of you plunge to the ground along with your anchor. This very scenario might have occured last year in Yosemite, when two Colorado climbers fell to their deaths after the leader fell just above their belay and their four piece anchor failed (could have also been due to the flake the the pro was placed behind expanding under load as well). If you protect the route properly in the first place, you should be able to avoid ever having to test out the ability of your anchors to withstand a downward pull. In practice this means placing pro more freqently at the start the climb (less rope out to absorb the force on the fall = more force on the pro) or even doubling up the first pro that the leader places above the belay in addition to setting directional pro to protect against an upwards pull. If you wan to play around with these scenarios there's a good fall force simulator that you can access through this link: http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=GDEPAROI# Quote
IceIceBaby Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 I think that what u call dynamic belay. U supposes to weight the pieces and also the leader suppose to clip to the higher piece in the anchor and/or first piece (within 2’ from the anchor) whichever come first, to void FF2. The directional works with your body weight as added contour weight to the leader impact. So…yes it will rip, if you not weighting the anchor, or at least tied very short to it. Look at the Petzl site they have this theory explained better then my foreign broken English Climb safe… Quote
MounTAIN_Woman Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 Wow, unless I'm missing something, I would have a hard time leading out with the anchors set up as you have described. You have three anchors rigged for a downward pull, with a single directional anchor for an upward pull. Now, should the leader fall, he/she will pull you up, potentially ripping out the single piece, followed by the trio of pieces. Not exactly a bomb-proof belay anchor. The belay anchor, as I understand it, is for the belayer, and the leader places protection on lead. There's nothing saying that the leader can't use the belay anchors as his/her first "piece". You have essentially rigged a belay for bringing up your second. But not for the other scenario. You need to equalize the anchors using a sling, cordelette, or similar method and make sure to anticipate the direction of pull. There is a good write up of this in John Long's book "Climbing Anchors". Quote
Greg_W Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by MounTAIN Woman: Wow, unless I'm missing something, I would have a hard time leading out with the anchors set up as you have described. You have three anchors rigged for a downward pull, with a single directional anchor for an upward pull. Now, should the leader fall, he/she will pull you up, potentially ripping out the single piece, followed by the trio of pieces. Not exactly a bomb-proof belay anchor. The belay anchor, as I understand it, is for the belayer, and the leader places protection on lead. There's nothing saying that the leader can't use the belay anchors as his/her first "piece". You have essentially rigged a belay for bringing up your second. But not for the other scenario. You need to equalize the anchors using a sling, cordelette, or similar method and make sure to anticipate the direction of pull. There is a good write up of this in John Long's book "Climbing Anchors". What has been described is a pretty standard belay anchor for a naturally-protected multi-pitch climb. Both of John Long's books give examples of the very types of anchors described above. Greg Quote
Dru Posted June 18, 2002 Posted June 18, 2002 quote: Originally posted by MounTAIN Woman: Wow, unless I'm missing something, I would have a hard time leading out with the anchors set up as you have described. You have three anchors rigged for a downward pull, with a single directional anchor for an upward pull. Now, should the leader fall, he/she will pull you up, potentially ripping out the single piece, followed by the trio of pieces. Not exactly a bomb-proof belay anchor. The belay anchor, as I understand it, is for the belayer, and the leader places protection on lead. There's nothing saying that the leader can't use the belay anchors as his/her first "piece". You have essentially rigged a belay for bringing up your second. But not for the other scenario. You need to equalize the anchors using a sling, cordelette, or similar method and make sure to anticipate the direction of pull. There is a good write up of this in John Long's book "Climbing Anchors". read above posts for a discussion of why it wont happen the way you describe.... Quote
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