The liar leading our military

[scott_harpell]

Quit letting the conservatives distract you all from Bush's lying, coke-snorting, gun-selling, money-grubbing ways. Iraq is a tragedy. How many Iraqi civilians have we killed? How much money have we spent? How many lies did the Bush admin tell? Why are they undermining the 9-11 panel? These are serious questions. Get over Clinton. Focus on Bush. He's a criminal.

 

More civilians were killed with the high altitude bombings (which the clinton admin. used to prevent american casualties) than in Iraq. Food for thought.

[sexual_chocolate]

I believe both Bush AND Clinton should be tried for war crimes and genocide; both have behaved atrociously.

[Winter]

a. Let's see your sources. I haven't seen any reliable Iraqi casualty figures anywhere.

 

b. I'm not advocating for Clinton's policies. Get over Clinton. Its over. Its a conservative diversion from the current issues. Move on. Or is it moveon.org?

[chucK]

So what does that tell us about Iraq?

 

What do you mean? I have 1500 posts exactly.

 

I meant that it is interesting that with respect to the Iraq "situation" countries did not tend to jump on to the "winning" team. I guess that means either there was just too much sleaze to overlook, or perhaps that we are not obviously going to be the winners?

[sexual_chocolate]

the latter.

[sexual_chocolate]

I believe both Bush AND Clinton should be tried for war crimes and genocide; both have behaved atrociously.

 

But you know what's just as bad in both situations? A cowed congress unable or unwilling to stem the tide.

[j_b]

clinton forced the balkan situtation to be handled by nato instead of the un (the euros wanted the un to handle it but with the un clinton needed permission whereas we essentially control nato 100%). for the iraq conflict, the euros wanted to make a stand for the primacy of international law, which us administrations are refusing to consider with increasing frequency.

a kosovo primer in the context of us interventions abroad, by nc

 

but in general i agree with winter that this is not relevant to having a current administration that lies through its teeth every day.

[sexual_chocolate]

I'd hardly call the situation "not relevant", since it shows our propensity for egregious action, regardless of administration. Bush should be tried, but what are the mechanisms that engage us in these types of behaviours?

 

Today's News:

 

 

"Latest Developments

Reuters Photo

NATO Sees Specter of Ethnic Cleansing

(Reuters) - NATO troops raided apartment blocks in a flashpoint Kosovo town on Friday after two days of mass violence the alliance said verged on "ethnic cleansing" of Serbs by majority Albanians. Almost 1,000 Serbs have fled their homes and sought the protection of NATO-led peacekeepers stationed in the province after riots, gunfire and arson attacks on Serb churches and villages...."

[scott_harpell]

JB... your link reiterates what sexy cocoa and I have been pointing out for the last 20 posts; both administrations proven war mongers willing to lie to appease their desire to go to war. Are you debating this?

[j_b]

true enough sc. the problem is doing so without taking your eyes off the ball. until, scott actually starts criticizing this administration, it will remain a ploy to muddle the issue (as shown by the evolution of his argument in this thread)

 

imo the most pressing task remains to get rid of one of the worst administration in us history. another 4 years of this would be disastrous for us and the rest of the world. exposing their continual abuse of power and total disdain for democracy, should go a long way toward showing that our system can (and has)indeed be abused on other occasions, and hopefully will force future politicians to observe greater standards of accountability.

 

i am somewhat ashamed to acknowledge that for the first time ever, i may think that, today, choosing the lesser of 2 evils is indeed a valid consideration. which is not to say that people should not discuss why alternatives to the current system checks are a necessity (notably this blatantly undemocratic electoral system)

[sexual_chocolate]

Ralph Nader in 2004! (heehee)

[scott_harpell]

Uhm. Mabe you haven't read all the posts, but I already have. Even in the one preceeding this one, I gave no excuse nor backing for the current administration.

[sexual_chocolate]

JB... your link reiterates what sexy cocoa and I have been pointing out for the last 20 posts; both administrations proven war mongers willing to lie to appease their desire to go to war. Are you debating this?

 

 

Disclaimer: I must say that as far as warmongering goes, I feel that Bush is in a league of his own on this one....

Clinton wasn't nearly as militant, don't you think?

[scott_harpell]

definitely. I just wish that some would drop the 'hippie' love maker not war maker moniker that monika got him. I can't believe that we currenlty are under someone who has essentially made war with 1/3 of the world.

[j_b]

scott, first let me say that my intent is not to offend you or put you down. not actively backing this administration is different from actively criticizing it. you started objecting to the liar characterization by talking about the editing of the video segment (which as said by wirlwind was not a valid criticism for the reasons he mentioned), then you brought up kosovo. this sequence of event either show that your primary intent was to exculpate shrub from criticism about his lying and not to discuss abuses of power by politicians in general or that you have a very circuitous way of bringing up salient arguments to the discussion. since you pretty much never critciize bush, and always seem to fall on the right-wing side of debates, and that you didn't object to bush's lies even though they were obvious from the get go, it seems fair to infer that your intent is to muddle the water and not discuss abuses of power in general. winter mentioned that 2 wrongs don't cancel one another and he is completely right. anyhow it remains to be determined whether the 2 wrongs can be given the same weight. for what it's worth, i was against the kosovo intervention in the form it was proposed but some type of international intervention was necessary.

[scott_harpell]

I did criticize bush, but what good does it do to do it over and over again on a website where 99.9% of people agree with you? I said, as some others did, that it was an ambush with selective editing and the 'journalism' was in poor taste. Remember that I also acknowledged the lie at the same time. You guys beat a dead horse until there is nothing left. We know you hate GWB, we agree and we think it is time to move on as no amount of whining is going to do anything. Bring something new to the table and lets get on with it.

[j_b]

i don't want to belabor this but ...

 

the administration still does not admit to its lies and in fact continues to lie every day (and they have over a $100million to spend on it). this seems like a good enough reason for people to continue saying they are not falling for the deception by pointing out instances of lying. the only logical reason for which people could stop bringing up this issue, is an acknowledgement of wrong doing by the culprits or their being booted out in november. until then expect more of it.

[scott_harpell]

not to sound like erik or something but... EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU!

[JoshK]

The biggest difference between Clinton and Bush? The majority of the country actually voted for Clinton. And then re-elected him. The jury is still out on the latter of those accomplishments for Shrub, and we all know how he did on the former.

[scott_harpell]

I might have heard that once before on this site... I just can't remember.

[Fairweather]

 

Mattp said: "That's what I don't get. What is these guy's beef with Kosovo? (1) Not a single American soldier died. (2) The bad guy's gone and there a more favorable government in place (?). (3)It appears that we stopped lots of bloodshed.

 

These statements don't apply to Iraq."

 

 

Oh really Mattp and ilk? This is from yesterday...but we won't hear about it on your NPR

 

 

22 killed as ethnic violence flares in Kosovo

 

JEFFREY FLEISHMAN AND ZORAN CIRJAKOVIC; Los Angeles Times

 

BELGRADE, Serbia and Montenegro - NATO sent more troops to Kosovo as violence flared Thursday for a second day and the United Nations struggled with the reality that five years of international intervention and billions of dollars in aid have not calmed the hatred between Serbs and ethnic Albanians.

 

As 940 additional NATO soldiers were dispatched, ethnic Albanians in Kosovo set Serbian Orthodox churches ablaze and police rolled out razor wire and fired tear gas. The violence spilled over from Wednesday, when clashes and house-burnings killed at least 22 people and injured 500 in a renewed spasm of ethnic tension in the Balkans.

 

NATO forces evacuated dozens of Serbs as homes smoldered across Kosovo, a Serbian province under U.N. control since the 1999 NATO war to protect ethnic Albanians from persecution. Kosovo's majority 1.9 million ethnic Albanians are demanding independence and are angry over what they view as occupation by NATO forces - a dynamic that led to the attacks against Serb villages and the torching of at least one U.N. vehicle. Early today, U.N. personnel in the Kosovo town of Mitrovica were evacuated after two days of violence, Reuters reported.

 

"The way it escalated took everybody by surprise," said Florian Bieber, a Balkans expert and research associate for the European Center for Minority Issues. "There's a considerable degree of frustration among ethnic Albanians toward the United Nations. The ethnic Albanians see a failure of getting independence. There's a great feeling of being let down."

 

In New York, the U.N. Security Council met in emergency session Thursday at the request of the Serbian government. "The recent events have highlighted the fragility of the structures and relationships in Kosovo," said Secretary-General Kofi Annan to those in attendance. "It shows that despite the progress that has been made since 1999, we have not come far enough."

 

International officials are concerned that tensions may spread throughout Serbia. Rioters in the capital of Belgrade set a 17th-century mosque on fire early Thursday in retaliation for the attacks on Serbs in Kosovo. At the same time, a group marched on the U.S. Embassy, setting a vehicle ablaze and battling riot police. A second mosque was burned in the city of Nis as a mob chanted "death to all" Kosovo Albanians.

 

The unrest comes as Serbs throughout the region are bitter about high unemployment and disillusioned with the West, which they say rarely sympathizes with their problems while unfairly charging their politicians with war crimes. Nationalist Serbian political parties made gains in recent elections, and the violence in Kosovo - where Serbs compose only 10 percent of the population - could spark a revival of the kind of hate that roiled the Balkans throughout the 1990s.

 

Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica - calling on the U.N. Security Council to stop the bloodshed - led a procession of about 4,000 people through Belgrade on Thursday afternoon in an effort to quiet radical voices. Many Serbs say the burning of mosques could incite Islamic extremists such as al-Qaida and prevent the former Yugoslavia from eventually joining the European Union. But Serbs are also loath to relinquish Kosovo, which they consider sacred land where centuries ago their ancestors fought Turkish invaders.

 

"We are not fighting the Muslims. This is not a religious war," said Tomislav Nikolic, deputy leader of the ultra-right Serbian Radical Party, who condemned the mosque fires. He added that Serbs in Kosovo were "not attacked by Muslims but by the worst breed of terrorists."

 

(Published 1:50AM, March 19th, 2004)

Edited March 20, 2004 by Fairweather

[Winter]

Yo FW -

 

NPR story on Kosovo from March 18.

 

 

Try again.

[Fairweather]

OK, ya got me there. I never heard it though...and as you know, I'm a regular listener.

 

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Kosovo is still a mess, the UN is not effective there, The EU is not willing to police their own back yard, and Mattp still has no clue about world affairs.

[slothrop]

Sheesh! It's not like everything's going to be all lovey-dovey in the Balkans anytime in the forseeable future. However, things were remarkably calm for quite a while and compared to Iraq, Kosovo is like Seattle on a sunny day in March.

 

The EU doesn't have much of a policing capacity, do they? That's what NATO's for, and they're sending more troops. What else should they do?

[murraysovereign]

OK, ya got me there. I never heard it though...and as you know, I'm a regular listener.

 

That's OK, Fairweather, we wouldn't expect you to actually check your facts before spouting off.

 

 

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that Kosovo is still a mess, the UN is not effective there, The EU is not willing to police their own back yard, and Mattp still has no clue about world affairs.

 

You're right, Kosovo is still a mess. Generations of ethnic hatred won't disappear overnight, no matter how hard we bomb them.

 

And no, the UN and NATO haven't succeeded in solving the area's problems, but they've at least managed to keep the bloodshed to a minimum, which is no mean feat considering the vigour with which the various ethnic groups were pursuing one another's eradication.

 

As for the EU, those NATO troops in Kosovo are from Germany, France, Britain, and Italy - the EU, in other words - as well as an American contingent. There are also forces from Canada, the Netherlands, and various other countries. If they've been as ineffective as you claim, then the blame falls as much on the American contingent as any other.

 

Perhaps you'd prefer that everyone withdraw and let the massacres resume? After all, the intervention has been less than perfectly effective, so we might as well just give up altogether, right? Or do you have a solution in mind beyond just slagging the various countries that are trying their damnedest to resolve an incredibly complex problem? If so, I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.