Mark_Husbands Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 I’m interested in any comments members might have about the related issues of climbing ethics and access to climbing areas. Some questions you may or may not consider: · Is there an understood code of conduct (or should there be) at local climbing areas related to style of ascent, gear replacement, or treatment of the physical (climbing and non-climbing) environment? Or treatment of other climbers and non-climbing recreationists? Would you voluntarily give up certain climbs or activites to conform to local codes of conduct? · Are you concerned about losing access to local climbing areas? Are you concerned about damage to local climbing areas (or the climbing experience) because of crowds or climbers who engage in inappropriate behavior? Should we be mainly concerned only about how our individual experiences are affected, or the experiences of all climbers? · It used to seem that climbing areas in different regions had their own community of climbers who agreed on codes of conduct. Is this still true, or has the growth of the sport and an increase in travel by climbers made regional standards less important? · What are your feelings about the way government agencies treat climbers as a recreation user group? Is it better for agencies to regulate climbers’ activities, or is it better for climbers to self-regulate (or is no regulation necessary at all)? · Do forums like these have an important function in bringing climbers together around access issues or codes of conduct? · If there is an accepted code of conduct at a climbing area, how can climbers “enforce’ that code on other climbers? You get the idea. Any comments would be helpful. I’m a grad student (and climber), and I don’t work for a government agency (at this time). Your comments will not be publicly reproduced; I just want to use them (maybe) for a small project. The same message will be posted in a number of forums in North America. Thanks, M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Well, here is as good a place as any to start. You'll have to skip through the early (topic relevant) stuff to get to the 5 pages of unabashed, unconsidered spray to get to what *you* want for your grad project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 I'd say that would be a poor place to start, Sobo. One might get the impression from that thread or others like it that bolting is the only issue or the most important issue when it comes to "codes of conduct" and access issues for climbers in Washington. They might also get the idea that climbers cannot discuss challenging issues without resorting to childish name calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jopa Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 mattp said: They might also get the idea that climbers cannot discuss challenging issues without resorting to childish name calling. At least he would know the truth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 mattp said: ...They might also get the idea that climbers cannot discuss challenging issues without resorting to childish name calling. In a roundabout way, that was exactly my point. I think Mark Husbands might be better served by seeking intelligent input elsewhere, i.e. not on this board. I guess instead of adding the "wave", I should have inserted the "roll eyes". I was as dismayed as anyone with what the discussion descended into. The thread was moved to Spray, and rightly so, since that was what it ultimately became. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 sobo said: In a roundabout way, that was exactly my point. I think Mark Husbands might be better served by seeking intelligent input elsewhere, i.e. not on this board. I guess instead of adding the "wave", I should have inserted the "roll eyes". I was as dismayed as anyone with what the discussion descended into. I don't think there are many climbing ethic discussions that haven't descended into oneupsmanship and childishness (Robbins vs. Harding anyone?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Well now there you may have a point, CJF. Except I remember once when I "debated" the issue with my friends we all agreed OK. Actually, I believe we have at times been able to have a nearly reasonable discussion of some parts of the issue even here on cc.com, but as a general rule I think you are correct that certain "ethical" issues related to climbing are very emotional and lead to combative rhetorical confrontation rather than more civil discussion. Are climbers different in this respect than, say, surfers or soccer players? I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 For an example of how it is that I think "codes of conduct" would address a broader ranger of issues, consider this -- from the New Zealand Alpine Club website: Code of Conduct for Rockclimbers Permission Before entering other peoples' land permission must be obtained. Any agreements made must be strictly followed. Accept that sometimes you may be refused permission to enter the land because of current circumstances, eg. family gathering, lambing/calving. Impact Any rockclimbing must have the lowest possible impact on the crag and environs. Points to note are: No climbing on special areas such as burial grounds, artefact sites, stalagmites and stalactites, areas of rare wildlife or other such identified areas Rockclimbers should limit their activities at a crag to the cliff, its top and its base, preserving areas such as native bush and reserves for all. Keep tracks to a minimum A crag is a small area and should not be used as a toilet All rubbish should be taken from the crag, including biodegradables Route Preparation This should be done to ensure minimum impact while ensuring the route is safe to climb. Talk to the landowners before cutting or removing vegetation. It is important that the route be prepared properly so the job does not have to be done twice. All ropes, slings etc. used in cleaning must be taken when leaving the crag, as these are often unsightly. Fixed Gear and Anchors In some areas climbs may have to be equipped with bolts or pegs. It is stressed that this gear is placed only for safety reasons. Where possible use the same belay point for several routes. At bolt station belays, the double bolt and chain set-up is the minimum standard. Bolts, where necessary, should be placed using the following as a guide: Make every bolt safe to use Use the best or most appropriate type for the rock Use care when considering bolt placements - note the distance between bolts, and ease of clipping. Naming Routes The prerogative of the first ascentionist. Care should be taken not to offend others with the selected name. It is not worth incurring the wrath of the local iwi, ranger, farmer or landowner for the sake of a crude or derogatory route name. This can cause a crag to be closed. Behaviour Remember that your voice carries some distance from the cliff, sometimes far enough to be heard by landowners and other land users who may be upset by obscenities and offensive phrases uttered in the heat of the moment on a climb. Before stripping off for a swim, consider if nudity might be offensive to landowners. It sometimes is! On a farm: Leave gates as you find them (open or shut) Cross fences at stiles preferably or at strainer posts, and cross locked gates at the hinged end Leave your dog and gun at home Do not distress or molest the stoc Before driving across farmland you must check with the farmer. Cultural Considerations Where crags have special cultural significance, cultural sensitivities and any issues arising must be resolved before climbing commences. In particular, aspects such as burial grounds and tapu on Maori land must be addressed. Relevant specialists may need to survey the crag. Communications Maintain good communications. A few minutes of polite discussion can mean an uninterrupted day's climbing, whereas a few hurled insults can result in no further access for climbers ever. Be courteous and respectful. Camping Camp only in designated areas and keep a tidy camp. Completely extinguish any campfire after use. Safety Inherent in climbing is an element of risk. Some flaunt it, others respect it, some choose to ignore it. In the final analysis you are responsible for your own safety. Nobody has to do a particular route. If a route is too necky for you, back off. Climb as safely as possible. Beware of loose rocks; they cause considerable damage to people and equipment when dislodged. Some crags are notorious for having loose rocks on the routes and on access/descent tracks. Wearing a helmet could save you from serious injury. All things being equal, softer rock is more likely to have protection fail; keep this in mind when placing wires at some of the softer rock crags. Treat all fixed gear with suspicion - you do not know its history. Access to crags is a privilege not a right! This information may be copied for redistribution on the condition that it is reproduced in full and no items or objects represented on this leaflet are omitted. Page from NZ Alpine Club site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 There is another view here! Bolts: Only in retreat and rescue situation. Pitons: If using this it must be shitty rock where other modern devices are useless. Belay stations bolted: Fine if NECESSARY! If not then DON'T MAKE THEM! Permission: If you don't have permission get fucking lost! If nobody else following you does in the immediate or future then don't report the shit since it will just create access issues. Climb all stalagtites and mites in Thailand it's the shit Naming Routes: The rule listed is crap. Behavior: Be quiet fuckers! Nobody cares about the 12a you onsighted 16 weeks ago. Bring your dog if he is nice and behaved. Otherwise leave dumbass fido at home. You know who you are. Please molest animals so I can film it! If you are climbing or thinking of it on burial grounds then I hope death meets you soon. Communications: Please communicate and fornicate. Safety: Climbing is not safe unless there is a bolt every few feet. Otherwise learn to place pro every 2 inches like I do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 The New Zealand ethics are for a land where 90% of the land is PRIVATELY OWNED. Are the same ethics appropriate for a place like Bc where 90% of the land is public? And no landowner is going to complain and shut down access if I say "This fucking route sucks!" loudly or name my route "MATTP AND POPE's OFFENSIVE GAY LOVE CHILD" 5.4 18 bolts 18 meters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 I propose dru and i make a new route with bolts and call it cascadeshitheads.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Just do it at Exit 38. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Indeed, Dru, you are brilliant to point out that those New Zealand ethics are specific to a different country with different access issues and different social norms. I disagree with your idea that bad behavior at crags or disgusting route names do not have any potential to contribute to having climbing restricted or shut down, though. At Vantage, the climbing area shares a parking lot with a hike that is in a guidebook to fifty popular hikes for children or something like that. I once arrived there to see a large poster on the bulletin board announcing a bunch of new climbs with route names like "smells like teen pussy," "menstruating whale snatch," and "too loose to come." Do you think those people who are taking their kids out for a nature hike want them to see that poster - or want them to hear some frustrated climber yell "this fucking route sucks?" Might they complain to the ranger about such a thing? Might the ranger take a dim view of it, too? You may think those route names are clever, and I'm not saying that they will be sufficient to get Vantage closed to climbing -- but things like that do not help our cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.