Bring back the Grey Wolf!

[David_Parker]

I just read this. Maybe Washington can get their act together too!.........

PCA in the News: Enviros, Ranchers See Eye-To-Eye On Wolf Plan byCarlotta Grandstaff ­ Originally appeared in Missoula Independent (Missoula,Montana) on 03/14/02.

There may be common ground after all between conservationists and rancherswhen it comes to de-listing the endangered gray wolf, a plan now underconsideration in Montana.

The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks (FWP) has launched astatewide "scoping" process to get citizens' comments on how to best managewolves when the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service de-lists the species.

Unless Montana, Idaho and Wyoming come up with their own programs formanaging the gray wolf, the federal agency is unlikely to remove it from theEndangered Species Act list.

David Gaillard of the Predator Conservation Alliance in Bozeman says FWP'scurrent proposal for wolf management contains "some good news for wolves.Actually, there's a lot in that draft that we support."

There are three specifics the Alliance agrees with, Gaillard says. Under thecurrent proposal wolves would be allowed to exist wherever there is suitablehabitat, and would not be zoned into particular areas. There is no cap onthe number of wolves that can exist, and no provision for hunting them inthe near future.

Gaillard says the Alliance would like to see improvement in one provision,which would allow ranchers to kill wolves on their property, regardless ofwhether they pose an immediate threat to humans or livestock. It's a"license to kill" the Alliance would like to eliminate.

Although ranchers don't read the provision that way, they agree that nolandowner should have the right to kill a wolf not posing any immediatethreat.

Beth Emter, communications coordinator for the Montana StockgrowersAssociation, says the group is still evaluating the FWP plan, but alreadylikes what they see. "What we do like about it is that we do want to see thede-listing process move forward, with Fish, Wildlife and Parks put in chargeof management."

The stockgrowers don't read the "license to kill" provision quite the waythe Alliance does, Emter says. According to their interpretation, landownerswould not have the right to kill a wolf simply for being on privateproperty, nor should they. Citizens should not have "full reign" to kill awolf that wanders onto a ranch unless it threatens livestock or poses aclear danger to humans.

One thing the stockgrowers would like to see, which Emter acknowledges isunlikely, is for the federal government to cover the costs associated withmanaging an endangered species. If the feds list it then and the feds shouldpay for it, she says.

Thirty breeding pairs of wolves distributed over the three-state area ofMontana, Idaho and Wyoming for three years will trigger the U.S. Fish andWildlife Service proposal to de-list the wolf, which could begin in 2003.Once the federal agency de-lists the wolf, they will fall under statemanagement.

Public comment will be accepted until April 30.

---To comment on wolf management, write the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parksonline at http://www.fwp.state.mt.us/contact/wolfcomment.aspVisit http://www.predatorconservation.org/MTwolfalert_3.2002.html for moreinformation.

[klenke]

AMEN TO THAT!!!

The wolf should be revered not feared. What a great animal. It is tops on my list of favorite land animals. The bald eagle is my favorite animal all told, though my inner anime sometimes takes precedence.

[Beck]

Wolves getting de-listed from the Endangered Species Act? WTF? Is this a response to their population becoming vibrant and sustainable (which, 30 pairs of introduced wolves do NOT a stable population make) or a financial decision to place the burden of wildlife management on the shoulders of state government?

Methinks the latter. It sounds like the special interest groups (ranchers, farmers, scared townies) are trying to burden the feds with the costs associated with keeping species on the ESA, and the feds at the D of I responded by saying, essentially, "you won't get the money from us to administer your state programs, set up your own plan and we'll stop overseeing endangered species in your states that come up with a plan."

I DON'T think they have the best interests of the wolves first in mind. Oh, and wolves run thru the Cascades- I saw one last summer up off Mountain Loop Hiway.

[klenke]

Beck,

You probably saw a fat coyote. Doubtful it was a wolf.

[Uncle_Tricky]

The are transient wolves in the Cascades, but they are extremely rare, occasionally filtering down from Canada. There have been only a couple verified sightings in the last 20 years, the most recent being up near Hozomeen along Ross Lake.

Do not fear the wolf--fear the KILLER RABBIT with a vicious streak a mile wide!

[ 03-30-2002: Message edited by: Uncle Tricky ]

[klenke]

My comment to Beck was facetious as it is common for people to mistake coyotes for wolves. Perhaps you saw a husky.

You may very well have seen a lone wolf, though on the west side of the crest it's more unlikely. I do recall a recent wolf "problem" with livestock in the Okanogan being in the news.

Oh, and Dru, a wolf is much more than a dog. Furthermore, a mountain lion would have no chance against a wolf. But then, they probably avoid each other.

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by klenke:

Oh, and Dru, a wolf is much more than a dog. Furthermore, a mountain lion would have no chance against a wolf. But then, they probably avoid each other.

---

I want some of that crack you are smoking. Mtn lion is 1.5-2x bigger than wolf and more efficient predator. Single wolf is ineffective predator, thats why they use the pack social structure.

[klenke]

Okay, Dru, you bring your mtn. lion pet and I'll bring my wolf pet and we'll put them in a ring and see what happens. Perhaps we can do some betting on the side like cock fights.

It's not about predatory efficiency here, it's about ferocity and drive. A wolf, in a pack or alone, is pretty ferocious when cornered or in danger. And it's not about size here either. If you took that logic, a wolverine would be nothin'. But, in reality, not many things out there will mess with a wolverine. And since wolves and wolverine share the same etymology, can you see my 'logic'?

Oh, and I'm not smoking anything in particular, I'm just smoking--as in "I'm smokin' now!"

[Dru]

quote:

---

Originally posted by klenke:

Okay, Dru, you bring your mtn. lion pet and I'll bring my wolf pet and we'll put them in a ring and see what happens. Perhaps we can do some betting on the side like cock fights.

It's not about predatory efficiency here, it's about ferocity and drive. A wolf, in a pack or alone, is pretty ferocious when cornered or in danger. And it's not about size here either. If you took that logic, a wolverine would be nothin'. But, in reality, not many things out there will mess with a wolverine. And since wolves and wolverine share the same etymology, can you see my 'logic'?

Oh, and I'm not smoking anything in particular, I'm just smoking--as in "I'm smokin' now!"

---

Dude, dont tell me you believe that Disney movie stuff about wolverines being tough, do you? Total BS. wolverines are wimps. just ask Aquaman.....

PS The lemmings were pushed.

Oh and when cornered or in danger.... what about the mtn lion????

I think the Romans tried that animal fight thing. Just like in Gladiator. Personally, I would like to see a Kangorilla take on a HippoFrog. Borbon sez he saw that once and that it was worth paying the Mexican 50 cents to see.

[Zenolith]

hmmm, two things i know. there has NEVER been a documented case of a wolf killing a human, but there have been a lot of cases of cougars doing so. does that say something about ferocity (which is subjective anyway.)? like bears cougars tend to run if they get the chance but will sometimes "lie in wait" for a human. wolves never do that. wolves can only fight with their jaws but a cougar will slap first and then chew.

[Chongo]

According to an unimpeachable source (AD&D Monster Manual c. 1979):

Wolf: Armor Class 8Hit Dice: 2+2# Attacks: 1Damage: 2-5Special Attacks/Defenses: Nil.

Mountain Lion: Armor Class: 7Hit Dice: 3+3# Attacks: 3Damage: 1-3/1-3/1-6Special attacks: Rear Claws rend for 1-3/1-3 if all other attacks hit.

SO, based on that, it looks like the wolf is in trouble. Unless it gets some lucky dice rolling in!

[miker]

Ah but the wolf is a pack animal more so than the mountain lion, so they should be able to take them.

Especially with the +1 claws of Lion-smiting....

"Hello my name is mike and I am a geek..."

miker

[Dru]

What if the wolf is a shapechanged 9th level druid?

[D-Squared]

I was up in Pasayten hiking out of Horseshoe basin and ran into a pair in '92. I am certian of it. My horses did not like being around them, they alerted me to their presence otherwise they would have gone "undetected".

Also, there is an established pack in the middle fork of the pasayten river drainage.

Later, Don

Stanwood, WA

[Dru]

A wolf is just a dog. But a mountan lion is much more than a housecat.

[Beck]

...maybe if there's waist high coyotes with white neck ruffs, klenke