carolyn Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 The more I climb, the more I learn, the more I understand the subtle differences amongst gear. I decided I was at a point to give the catalogs and websites another stab to help me understand the details of various types of gear. SO, Im looking at the BD site....Hopefully you can follow my train of thought here.... Rage is mainly for ice Cobra is said to be an all around tool, tho it seems to be mainly used on ice. Viper is for ice and mixed. ___________________ The new laser pick is for ice only (as stated on their site). Its "t" rated. The Titan pick (aka cobra) is meant for alpine/mixed. Its "b" rated. So why is the Laser pick (for ice only) sold on the Viper...a tool which is made for mixed climbing. And the Titan pick (alpine/mixed) sold on the rage and cobra...tools mainly used on ice only. This is an honest question....is there something I am missing here that makes sense the way they are selling the tools/picks? Or is it just a way for them to sell more picks? On a side note....has anyone used the laser picks yet? (I KNOW you have some ice out there!). Like? Dislike? ALthough Im looking into new tools for this season, Im thinking of nabbing a set for my rages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layton Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 hardly anyone has used the Laser picks Carolyn. Most stores probably are just getting em in. I would use them for really cold hard ice climbs like Murchison Falls in the rockies. The cobra pick is great for all around ice and mixed. I wouldn't use the laser for mixed unless I could afford to replace it. If you can find and afford it, get a pair of the Aermet picks. They used to cost $75 each, probably more now that they're discontinued. I got mine on the Dunham discount ( -i,e. the permaborrow). I bet your hands are too small for the cobra. Get a pair of vipers. Most alpine ice climbing is either hard enough where you want a real ice tool, or ez enough where it isn't going to be that desperate. Yes, you may get more tired with a curved tool like the viper on lower angled ice, but unless you can afford two sets of tools, go with the tool that will perform on the hard shit, not the easy. That being said, (i don't own one) I heard the Quark is the shiznit for vertical ice. If I could own two tools It'd be the cobras and the ergo-quarks ($$) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 I have my heart set on the quarks. Doing a little more research on the vipers, just to make sure. Youre right, My hands dont fit nicely around the cobras. I dont really like my rages (too heavy) I have access to use the Fusion, Aztar, and Ergo anytime, so I wont be buying anything like that anytime soon. Ive seen the laser picks. I like the fact that they are already beveled...less work for me! You said you wouldnt use the laser picks for mixed...which was my point exactly. Why would they put it on a tool that is made for mixed. WHy wouldnt they put the cobra pick on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I think the laser pick would be fine for most "roadside" ice and mixed climbing. In these circumstances it is no big deal to carry an extra pick, should you break one. The vipers are geared towards this type of climbing. You don't want to carry the weight of extra picks on an alpine route, so you may want a burlier pick. People that do alot of mixed climbing burn through picks pretty quickly, so in that case it doesn't really matter what your tools come stock with, you'll be on your second or third set by the end of the season. And everyone filed down the Cobra picks anyway, so whynot have them come filed down from the factory. I do mostly water ice, and for that I want the thinnest profile I can get, less dinnerplates, less swings, less work. If you are breaking picks on a waterfall climb then you have technique issues to deal with. Wann hear something sad? Last spring I sold my Cobras, and when the guy was on his way over to pick them up I was trying to take the Armet picks off, but I couldn't find the little tool. The guy showed up and I still couldn't get them off...so he got some Armets...I hope he appreciates them. I never had to sharpen those picks, they were awsome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Awesome tools that do it all are the Rages, Axtar (sp?), Alps wing, Naja, Predators etc’ Most important for me is the clearance and hook-ability they all relatively plunges well but lets face it if u going on alpine climb that demanding ice-tools then you will be fine with any of the above any more it is only bells and wistels if you cant climb a climb the fancy Cobra, Fusion, Viper, Quark/Ergo and whatever fancy tools wont do it I was climbing till 2 years ago with straight shaft Cassin tools and footflang and leading solid 4’s so it is not the tool ( but sure it can help) it is all in the basic design and not in the bullshit it is all in the pick profile and angle and not on the fluff that they sell u try the above and pick the one that fit u best and don’t be a sucker for gimmicks (Funny how they all say the rages are just OK tools and now BD decided to use the shaft clearance and design to their most advance tool the Fusion…) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted November 10, 2003 Author Share Posted November 10, 2003 I stand corrected.... the laser picks are B rated and they DO come on the cobra. Here is what a friend of mine from BD wrote to me: All three picks can be used for all conditions, some just work better than others (I think you are taking the add copy to literally, or it's wrong) To summarize: Laser pick: comes on Cobra & Viper -- thinner than Titan, better penetration, not as burly but can be used for mixed if you are not abusive (I use them for everything but drytooling, even on my Fusions) Titan: same as old cobra pick. Burly. Comes on Rage 'cauz that tool is meant for beginner/intermediate climbers and or "Scottish" style scratching about. Fusion: Comes on Fusion (duh). Specifically designed for high end drytooling abuse. Notched top for purchase when stein pulling. Can be used for ice but not as good as Laser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriss Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 The B and T ratings from the CE. B is for Basic, T is Technical. The T rated picks are required to be stronger than the B rated. Usage is up to you, though the design may have been intended for a specific use. chriss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 Carolyn, amazing that we think alike. I had the exact same question. Then I came up with the answer, but I forgot it. I think the tough pick will sustain more torque and twisting for the "M" routes. It's not about hitting the rock with your tool. I have to look at the catalogue again. Right now I'm going to do an alpine route. I have the alaska pick on my alpine tools, but might want my cobras for this. So I'm debating whether to do the big switch (pain in the ass) or just use the alpine tools. For anything less than 80', the alaska pick I'm expecting to bash a lot of rock so I don't want to fuck up my cobra picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boatskiclimbsail Posted November 10, 2003 Share Posted November 10, 2003 I get the cheapest (sometimes free) picks I can find and shape them to my liking. When I bash them on rocks (oops!), the next time I am at the car I get out my trusty file and reshape them. I don't think you can expect any pick to last forever, and a spare weighs little enough that I think it warrants carrying a spare. It's either that or a third tool, and for the alpine stuff being discussed, I think the pick wins. This post persuaded me to check out what BD says about these picks. Since when did a plasma cutter become a "laser"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 David_Parker said: Carolyn, amazing that we think alike. It must be the rope bag sending vibes! (which btw fits my boots, crampons, and a few miscl items in it very nicely for those roadside bouldering days!) David_Parker said: It's not about hitting the rock with your tool. So THAT is what I have been doing wrong all this time?!?!?!?! Seriously, tho. Lambone, what you said about going out into the alpine environment and wanting a more burly pick makes sense...so why wouldnt they put a cobra pick on the Viper tool? At least when getting the laser pick on the viper you dont have to bevel it down so much. Its already done for ya! Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 carolyn said: so why wouldnt they put a cobra pick on the Viper tool? At least when getting the laser pick on the viper you dont have to bevel it down so much. Its already done for ya! Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated! chriss said: The B and T ratings from the CE. B is for Basic, T is Technical. The T rated picks are required to be stronger than the B rated. Usage is up to you, though the design may have been intended for a specific use. chriss They all will do the task at hand just some will do certain tasks better then other and your crux is to find the one that fit YOUR demands best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 carolyn said: Lambone, what you said about going out into the alpine environment and wanting a more burly pick makes sense...so why wouldnt they put a cobra pick on the Viper tool? I don't work for BD, but maybe because the Viper is not an "Alpine" tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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