glassgowkiss Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 ehmmic said: Dave_Schuldt said: This reminds me of all the shit and second guesing that ehmmic got for putting a few pins in Green Dragon so she could bail. Instead of bolt wars we have aid ethics wars. Who will be the Dwayner of aid climbing? No need to dredge that up again Dave. I feel Ricardo's pain... As for nominations...it's a toss up between Glassgowkiss and Necro. Or are they the same person? first let me respond to eric: read what's on the front of my helmet-"fuck you you fucking fuck" as for you ehmmic: read what's on the back-"show me your tits". but seriusly, i don't give the rats fuck if people clean aid or nail the routes. but once it goes free stay the fuck away with the hammer and pitons. as i said, i didn't even read dicklands pantsy-ass wine about the climb. but looking back at it he deserves the same bitch- slapping as the other guy. darin, i somewhat agree with your statements, but.... i think it is lame when people go and nail free climbs. in 96 i witnessed 2 texans bashing pins on glowering spot pitch, because they thought hanging on a couple of rp's was too much for their fat asses. their argument was that the nose had only 1 free ascent.... and ehmmic, see you tonight and i'll see if you are so gutsy in person, as it is very easy to pop shit from behind the computer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 glassgowkiss said: and ehmmic, see you tonight and i'll see if you are so gutsy in person, as it is very easy to pop shit from behind the computer Yeah, I'm sure I'll meet ya. Never said I was gutsy. My slides will be more of the pretty picture variety, than the "this is the way coolest fucking climb that noone in this room is man enough to do besides me" variety... If nominating you for the aid climbing style police is gutsy then I am guilty. Later, dudes. Off to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted November 4, 2003 Share Posted November 4, 2003 ehmmic said: glassgowkiss said: and ehmmic, see you tonight and i'll see if you are so gutsy in person, as it is very easy to pop shit from behind the computer Yeah, I'm sure I'll meet ya. Never said I was gutsy. My slides will be more of the pretty picture variety, than the "this is the way coolest fucking climb that noone in this room is man enough to do besides me" variety... If nominating you for the aid climbing style police is gutsy then I am guilty. Later, dudes. Off to work. my point was about nailing on free climbs. it's like doctoring holds at the crag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelle Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) Whatever...I think that situation and everyone's opinion is well documented from the bs I endured last year. It's in the past. Just like bolts, no one is truly interested in a discussion and I am not interested in their opinions. Edited November 5, 2003 by ehmmic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Will, Glassgowkiss...etc. I have done the Zodiac clean with partners, and this summer I nailed on it while soloing. I nailed a hand full of pins on the Black Tower and Nipple Pitch. There was less fixed gear on it this summer, Ammon and Friends and the Hubers had cleaned alot of it. But mostly I nailed because I was alone, and afraid that if I fell on the tower and got hurt, someone else (SAR) would have to come save my ass. On the Nipple Pitch I did fall, and also to nailed because backcleaning would mean not being able to clean my cams. All I can say is, everything changes when you are solo. You don't have a partner to encourage you to finagle that clean micro nut, and should you fall and get hurt...you don't have a partner to help you self-rescue. Both of these reasons made up for why I hammered on the Zodiac. And I should also say that I hammered lightly and the pins were very easy to clean. Untill you have been up on El Cap alone, I think it isn't fair to criticize others. And as far as the gear you left behind. Sounds like you need to work on technique. You should consider it lost and be thankfull if you got any of it back. Just my opinions, I have also criticized newbies for nailing on clean routes, so feel free to slam away. I think alot of it is circumstantial. I think the best you can do is climb as clean as possible within a certain margin of saftey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 glassgowkiss said: but once it goes free stay the fuck away with the hammer and pitons. as i said, i didn't even read dicklands pantsy-ass wine about the climb. but looking back at it he deserves the same bitch- slapping as the other guy. darin, i somewhat agree with your statements, but.... i think it is lame when people go and nail free climbs. in 96 i witnessed 2 texans bashing pins on glowering spot pitch, because they thought hanging on a couple of rp's was too much for their fat asses. their argument was that the nose had only 1 free ascent.... and ehmmic, see you tonight and i'll see if you are so gutsy in person, as it is very easy to pop shit from behind the computer Gotta disagree with you on the "if it goes free then stop nailing it" bullshit. The Huber's among others who are free climbing the hard aid lines are using pitons to protect the routes. Some or all of the gear is pre placed. Read the article by Alex Huber in the recent AAj. He placed pins on his free climb of something in the Dolomites. Also, I think the Hubers used pins while free climbing Zodiac on El Cap. Just because a route goes free doesn't mean people shouldn't nail it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 they dont put em in and take em out they put em in and leave em in. fixed pins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnibmilc Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 a note to those with the experience to advocate nailing on Zodiac: what's the big deal with stepping up to the challenge of not carrying a hammer on a route like Zodiac? it is MORE difficult. it is scarier. the outcome isn't as sure. you might have to back off and get stuck doing some lousy rapping and leaving gear. you might have to set a pecker with the side of a camelot. you might have to figget for 6 hours on the nipple pitch after you rip all the fixed gear out of it. isn't NOT carrying a hammer just like carrying your fecal matter off the top of the route. if these good practices make the route too hard...maybe it would be better to do something more moderate to build up to Zodiac. isn't that the fun? WA column - leaning tower - cannibis wall - index upper wall - liberty bell - leaning tower - chief - got no good routes? Ricardo is going to be doing easier routes to catch up to his poor style high adventure solo of Zodiac...bet on it. the constructive aspect of the abuse here is that it will influence him and a bunch of others. go climb lots of stuff without a hammer...you'll figure out clean aid climbing a lot quicker than if you bring a hammer and nail your way out of a scary situation on a route a little too big for your best style. And you'll learn how to minimize the use of pins real quick. don't confuse the Huber bros with 98% of the readers here. don't we need to hear that nailing is bad? with enough experience, most folks will figure out when they need to BRING a hammer and bolt kit for that matter, without getting hurt. don't want to encourage too many new entries into aid climbing to be too impatient to learn without a hammer do you? isn't it truly fun to climb without a hammer because of the added challenge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 scott_harpell said: MisterE said: There's plenty of tricks for your bag out there. No need to bring a hammer on established clean routes. Those who do these pin routes free have advanced the level, and if you can't follow that lead, get on something more moderate. i guess the zodiac is off limits for 99.99999999% of climbers then jah cheif? I meant to say clean, not free. The context kind of indicates that, as does the second paragraph, but: my bad. It was 5:30 in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 wurd. i am very anti-nailing, but when you are that f-in high and alone, as Lambone pointed out... scary business for sure and knowing that if you are injured others may have to come rescue you, pins might not be such a bad idea... homeboy prolly went in over his head but biatch gots ballz. if you bitches are still whining about this tomorrow morning as i am nursing my soon to come hangover, i suggest you deal with this like real men and quit it with the BBS bitch-slap-fights and do it proppa. grow a pair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 some people like hammering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dru said: some people like hammering! Here come da judge! This has got to be Bob's new avatar picture! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 gnibmilc said: a note to those with the experience to advocate nailing on Zodiac: what's the big deal with stepping up to the challenge of not carrying a hammer on a route like Zodiac? it is MORE difficult. it is scarier. the outcome isn't as sure. you might have to back off and get stuck doing some lousy rapping and leaving gear. you might have to set a pecker with the side of a camelot. you might have to figget for 6 hours on the nipple pitch after you rip all the fixed gear out of it. isn't NOT carrying a hammer just like carrying your fecal matter off the top of the route. if these good practices make the route too hard...maybe it would be better to do something more moderate to build up to Zodiac. isn't that the fun? WA column - leaning tower - cannibis wall - index upper wall - liberty bell - leaning tower - chief - got no good routes? Ricardo is going to be doing easier routes to catch up to his poor style high adventure solo of Zodiac...bet on it. the constructive aspect of the abuse here is that it will influence him and a bunch of others. go climb lots of stuff without a hammer...you'll figure out clean aid climbing a lot quicker than if you bring a hammer and nail your way out of a scary situation on a route a little too big for your best style. And you'll learn how to minimize the use of pins real quick. don't confuse the Huber bros with 98% of the readers here. don't we need to hear that nailing is bad? with enough experience, most folks will figure out when they need to BRING a hammer and bolt kit for that matter, without getting hurt. don't want to encourage too many new entries into aid climbing to be too impatient to learn without a hammer do you? isn't it truly fun to climb without a hammer because of the added challenge? Yes and No Soloing El Cap is challanging enough for most people, for me at least. I believe the increased chance of getting injured is not worth the chest beating points of saying you did the route clean. These days if I am injured on El Cap, one of two things will likely go down the tiolet...my solo-aiding future, or my marrige. For experienced aid climbers, I don't think it is a matter of the route being "too hard." I could have done the route clean, infact I have....I led the two pitches clean previously. For me it was a matter of risk. You can place a tiny hb brassy, ball-nut, cam-hookor two cam black alien as good as it could possibly be placed...but the simple fact is that it is more likely to blow on you then a pin. Bounce tests prove this over and over again. For me falling on to a ledge half way up El Cap alone (literaly, I was the only one on the whole east face) was not worth the risk. A sawed of pin with one or two firm taps (not-blows) isn't going to affect the route that much. I'm not talking about the Nose/Salathe, or Lurking Fear hear. As far as I'm concerned pitches that are rated C3+F are treading a fine line between what can regularly go clean by most aid climbers standards. Lots of you may look up some of the previous stuff I have posted about clean climbing would probably call me a hypocrite. That is fine, I admit I have become more conservative, I'm a little older...I have a family, and my closest friends have died pushing it for style points. I just don't think it is worth it. Regardless, I still strive to do as much clean aid as possible, and hope to do Mescalito clean this summer. But I'll see you in hell before I leave at least one hammer, some heads, small pins, and a bolt kit in the haul bag. The whole "if it is too hard just rapple" card is just un-realistic bullshit when you are talking about a grade VI route. Being forced to rapple 3/4 of the way up El Cap because you cannot replace some heads or broken dowels is just plain lunicy. Now don't forget, we are talking about BIG walls here folks, not some practice route at index....don't confuse the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Now don't forget, we are talking about BIG walls here folks, not some practice route at index....don't confuse the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dru said: they dont put em in and take em out they put em in and leave em in. fixed pins. Why should that be any different? It's worse in my perspective...who want's a route littered with abandoned fixed gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 a fixed pin is "cleaner" and damages the rock less than 100 placed and removed pins in the same spot. the only reason America has the "place and remove" ethic is because early climbers were too cheap to leave many pins fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dru said: a fixed pin is "cleaner" and damages the rock less than 100 placed and removed pins in the same spot. the only reason America has the "place and remove" ethic is because early climbers were too cheap to leave many pins fixed. have you heard of bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 a fixed pin is also cleaner and less damaging to rock than a bolt, at least according to the Hubers. of course they get manky and rust and fall out eventually. the brits like that cause then the E grade creeps up over time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Dru said: a fixed pin is "cleaner" and damages the rock less than 100 placed and removed pins in the same spot. the only reason America has the "place and remove" ethic is because early climbers were too cheap to leave many pins fixed. Is it just me or does anyone else think this logic is...like...dumb? Perhaps early American climbers didn't want their cracks to become strings of rusty pitons with broken eyelets like those you can find in Canada or Europe Personaly i think fixed gear is trash and climbers who don't or can't remove it to be incompitant (with the exception of bomber copperheads). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott_harpell Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Lambone said: Dru said: a fixed pin is "cleaner" and damages the rock less than 100 placed and removed pins in the same spot. the only reason America has the "place and remove" ethic is because early climbers were too cheap to leave many pins fixed. Is it just me or does anyone else think this logic is...like...dumb? Perhaps early American climbers didn't want their cracks to become strings of rusty pitons with broken eyelets like those you can find in Canada or Europe Personaly i think fixed gear is trash and climbers who don't or can't remove it to be incompitant (with the exception of bomber copperheads). hm... after replacing 8 permanent pitons (really nailed in there) you are telling me that it is more damage to have a small diameter bolt hole? also... like lamey said... rust streaks... this is sooo unapealing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 so you would rather see the few hammer required placements on a 99% clean route get blown out until clean gear goes into the scar, than see a fixed pin or two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnibmilc Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 (edited) lambone said: The whole "if it is too hard just rapple" card is just un-realistic bullshit when you are talking about a grade VI route. Being forced to rapple 3/4 of the way up El Cap because you cannot replace some heads or broken dowels is just plain lunicy. Now don't forget, we are talking about BIG walls here folks, not some practice route at index....don't confuse the two. something tells me you've never climbed those practice routes at Index without a hammer or rappelled them! but really, is it really that much more dangerous to climb Zodiac without a hammer? what is it that you climb for? managing risk? exposing yourself to a little fear and risk? or is it all about scoring an ascent of Zodiac and not worrying about having to rap the freaking thing? i heard guys used to stay way past their turn around time on El Cap big walls before yosar. those bull horns in the meadows will be talking to you fast if you're hurt...El Cap isn't Baffin. seems odd that you effectively encourage new aid climbers to bring a hammer on a trade route. why not challenge them with relatively SAFE clean aid climbing. hmmmmm. lunacy? different priorities. Edited November 5, 2003 by gnibmilc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Ok dude, first of all... I am not encouraging new aid climbers to do jack shit. This is the spray forum, and as far as I am aware of this discussion has been amongst a bunch of experienced people, I am merely spraying my opinion. I don't teach new aid climbers to go aid climbing with a hammer, never have, never will...ask iceguy. Who do you think I am chalanging here? I am not telling anyone to do anything...If ricardo had come to me and asked me if he should solo Zodiac fo his first wall, I would have said no. Not, hell yeah dude just bring a bunch of pins! Second, I climbed every aid route I did at Index without a hammer, and rappeled each one to get down, mostly solo. Is this uncommon? Third, what is it that you climb for? managing risk? exposing yourself to a little fear and risk? or is it all about scoring an ascent of Zodiac and not worrying about having to rap the freaking thing? I'm not sure I understand this question. But let me try and answer. Soloing El Cap this summer was not at all about "scoring the Zodiac" as if it would be some notch in my belt. I had already done the route...clean. I solo aid climb for the experience of being alone and selfsufficient on a big cliff. I like the satisfaction of doing all the work by myself, and getting to lead every pitch. I have rapped off of El Cap several times, from up to the 1000ft mark. I don't relish the thought of doing it again, and I don'tmake it part of my strategy to go up there unprepared with the option of rappeling down. in my opinion rappleling off of big walls is saved for those emergencies when you have no choice, or your damn partner is flaking out and would rather be boneing their girlfriend. One of the first thngs I learned about big walls came from John Longs book, where he says that rappeling off a wall is the most dangerous thing a big wall climber can do. And if some first time wall climber asks me if they should chose bailing if they get stopped half way up the Zodiac, or bringing pitons, I am going to tell them to bring the damn pitons. Do I manage risk when I climb? If I am interpereting your question correctly: HELL YEAH, don't you? Or do you just freeball it up every route that you do with your nuts to the breeze fancyfree and laughing at death. For me managing my risks sometimes slamming an angle in when i'm reaching ground/ledge fall potential. Fuck yeah I evaluate and manage my risks, if you have a problem with that...well don't ever expect to rope up with me. Different priorities I guess...cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Did you take a hammer and a bunch of pins up Glacier Peak, big shot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 fixed goes clean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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