dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 I went to RMNP about a year ago to check out all of the "classic" and rad bouldering that I had been hearing about. Although the bouldering was in a beautiful setting and looked good I couldn't bring myself to lay down the pad and throw on the shoes. Why, might you ask? Heres the answer.. All the bouldering is in a very fragile alpine environment where there are signs everywhere telling you to stay on the main trail. It seems that the boulderers didn't think that the signs applied to them because there are rough climber trails weaving throughout the boulders and the landing zones have been beaten down complete with cutting down small limbs and bushes that are in the way. Now I've heard that they may have access issues there! I sure hope that their not surprised! I love bouldering but I also love the beauty of an unspoiled alpine setting. So I pose the question...should bouldering happen in these fragile environments or should it be restrained to more low elevation settings? I know that some alpine boulder fields could have bouldering if they are continuously rocky because you wouldn't impact the surounding meadows (in theory), or not? Let me know what you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 yeah look at the pic of jon lonh doing the pinch overhang...there is plants and rocks all about the base of it and then recently in one of the rags i saw a pic of some alternative kid with like 4 pads underneath him and there were no longer plants or rocks beneath it....what da faaa???? another reason organized bouldering needs to be stopped... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 how long does it take to hike in? cause i really cant see that pad people are actually gonna hike in an hour or two to boulder carrying all that foam. i wont walk more than 15 minutes to boulder, but i will boulder in basecamp while alpine climbing as long as im falling on my partners' thermarests and not my own one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: yeah look at the pic of jon lonh doing the pinch overhang...there is plants and rocks all about the base of it and then recently in one of the rags i saw a pic of some alternative kid with like 4 pads underneath him and there were no longer plants or rocks beneath it....what da faaa????another reason organized bouldering needs to be stopped... hard issues...bouldering in general is the most destructive form of climbing-you can look at any area that has been around for a while to see the impacts to the ground. Part of that problem is because of lots of pads but it is also because of the shear numbers of people bouldering. i think that some areas can bounce back if people stoped climbing there. Ex. Sqamish boulders would overgrow pretty quickly if climbers stopped going there but in fragile areas like alpine meadows it could take 10 times as long to grow back. bouldering is here to stay-it's one of the most pure forms of climbing but it's sad that it has to be the most destructive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by dyno merchant: hard issues...bouldering in general is the most destructive form of climbing-you can look at any area that has been around for a while to see the impacts to the ground. Part of that problem is because of lots of pads but it is also because of the shear numbers of people bouldering. i think that some areas can bounce back if people stoped climbing there. Ex. Sqamish boulders would overgrow pretty quickly if climbers stopped going there but in fragile areas like alpine meadows it could take 10 times as long to grow back. bouldering is here to stay-it's one of the most pure forms of climbing but it's sad that it has to be the most destructive. busy climbing is destructive climbing, sport trad aid or bouldering. ever been to the gallery or up cat in the hat? salathe? outer space? diedre? hogsback saddle on baker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 dyno could you please inform me as to the requirements to a pure form of climbing....and uninterrupted movement over a small piece of stone concentrating only on a single sequence of hard moves doesn't qualify as an answer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: busy climbing is destructive climbing, sport trad aid or bouldering. ever been to the gallery or up cat in the hat? salathe? outer space? diedre? hogsback saddle on baker? or to marble canyon in february? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: how long does it take to hike in? cause i really cant see that pad people are actually gonna hike in an hour or two to boulder carrying all that foam. i wont walk more than 15 minutes to boulder, but i will boulder in basecamp while alpine climbing as long as im falling on my partners' thermarests and not my own one. RMNP boulders take about 30 minutes to an hour to get to depending on where you go. which is farther than most boulders normally hike. i guess that means that boulderers will reach farther into the back country than most people think. hopefully the pads wont go much further than that. i think that low impact bouldering like you've done on the thermarest is totally fine. i just worry that if tons of pads and people visit that same boulder then the impact would be much greater. if more and more boulders in alpine areas like yours get affected then the good old government will want to get involved because they will say "look at those boulderers, they are everywhere and impacting everything" and they may start imposing more rediculous restrictions like you see at hueco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 i dunno about the usa but our provincial government is pro-destroy the backcountry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 DM, I find your statements puzzling. First you rail about how bad boulderers are for the surrounding environment and then in your next post you characterize restrictions on boulderers at Hueco as "rediculous". If you think boulderers suck so bad, why do you think restrictions upon them are ridiculous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by erik: dyno could you please inform me as to the requirements to a pure form of climbing....and uninterrupted movement over a small piece of stone concentrating only on a single sequence of hard moves doesn't qualify as an answer.... My criteria for pure form of rock climbing is...1. end of climb must reach a summit2. free of rope or harness (fall takes you to the ground-not hanging on a rope)3. climbing a natural formation of rock (not in a gym) while trying to practice "no trace ethics" some bouldering meets this criteria and some doesn't. i prefer the bouldering that does! some mountaineering and traditional climbing meets this criteria also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by chucK: DM, I find your statements puzzling. First you rail about how bad boulderers are for the surrounding environment and then in your next post you characterize restrictions on boulderers at Hueco as "rediculous". If you think boulderers suck so bad, why do you think restrictions upon them are ridiculous? I am a boulderer and the only reason it sounds like I'm railing on boulderers is because I try to stay realistic about the impacts we have on our environment. I think some impacts are o.k. considering all of the impacts on the world today. Although, I feel that some environments might better be left alone (ex. fragile alpine environments such as RMNP). The Hueco issue is very complex and I almost didn't write it on my post because it opens up such a big jar of controversy. basically, TEXAS SUCKS AS A STATE and if Hueco were in New Mexico or Arizona (or any other state)you wouldn't have seen any of those restrictions. Texas is all about restricting people from experiencing the environment. I've seen areas with tons more impact and in more sensitive areas with absolutely no restrictions and they are doing fine that way. [ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: dyno merchant ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayjay Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: 2. free of rope or harness (fall takes you to the ground-not hanging on a rope) Why this requirement?If you get up a climb clean on trad gear does it really lessen what you've done just because you protected yourself from injury/death in the process? I could understand if you were only arguing against climbs with bolts, but I don't understand why "pure climbing" only comes if you risk bad injury or death...That's just absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sayjay: Why this requirement?If you get up a climb clean on trad gear does it really lessen what you've done just because you protected yourself from injury/death in the process? I could understand if you were only arguing against climbs with bolts, but I don't understand why "pure climbing" only comes if you risk bad injury or death...That's just absurd. stopping climbing to clip disrupts the experience. i would add toproping to his "pure" list though. and of course the unpure climbing gets sent to the concentration camp... the dyno solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 2. free of rope or harness (fall takes you to the ground-not hanging on a rope) Yum. Sounds like a feast to me. Where can I find a place like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by dyno merchant: I am a boulderer and the only reason it sounds like I'm railing on boulderers is because I try to stay realistic about the impacts we have on our environment. [ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: dyno merchant ] is this an oxymoronic statement??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hikerwa Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 I can see dynomuncher probably not being the climber that we'll see reaching the age of 80... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sayjay: Why this requirement?If you get up a climb clean on trad gear does it really lessen what you've done just because you protected yourself from injury/death in the process? I could understand if you were only arguing against climbs with bolts, but I don't understand why "pure climbing" only comes if you risk bad injury or death...That's just absurd. I understand what your saying and I'm not excited about serious injury or death but I think that there's something to be said for a little risk. The more equipment you use the less risk is involved (obviously not true if you are an A5 climber or have no idea how to use the equipment). I think the most pure form of movement on rock should be free of all these complexities and trinkets. Climbing would then be more simple. You could just walk up to a piece of rock, decide if the risk was to great or not, climb up it and then summit and walk or climb off. Obviously this form of climbing isn't for everyone and it isn't usually the form of climbing I choose. The point is that I think that it is the most pure form of movement over rock and the days that I do experience climbing in that fashion...those are some of my most memorable days. [ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: dyno merchant ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayjay Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Okay, DM. I'll buy that - though you won't catch me doing much free-soloing beyond mid-5th! Stay safe out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by sayjay: Okay, DM. I'll buy that - though you won't catch me doing much free-soloing beyond mid-5th! Stay safe out there... you wont find me pushing my physical limits soloing either! I guess my thinking works better on boulders (which is what you'll usually find me on) because you can better decide the risks (boulders aren't usually that high off the ground)! The bigger boulders (ex. the buttermilks) can get more exciting...you just have to learn where your limits are and down climb and jump off if you are about to get in over your head. Yehawwww! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: stopping climbing to clip disrupts the experience. i would add toproping to his "pure" list though. and of course the unpure climbing gets sent to the concentration camp... the dyno solution. if the concentration camps are called rifle or mt. charlston then send them there! there's room for everyone in this great world of climbing. please send me to the concentration camp of bishop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 a lot of the areas in rmnp frequented by the bouldering crowd are not really backcountry - in the summer the huge parking lots are full by 8am and the tourists usually go farther in the "backcountry" then the boulderers. having spent the better part of 5 years there climbing (not bouldering), its funny how the boulderers just show up all the sudden. people have been bouldering at places like emerald lake and lake haiyaha for a while, but the park was never really a bouldering destination. then about a year or two ago it started getting more popular, then last year a lot of big name boulderers came through and sent some hard problems. they didnt really make that big a deal of it (i know because they were staying at my house) but as soon as it hit the mags, all of the sudden the park is THE place to boulder, and all the kids come out with their pads. theyll probably disappear as quickly as they appeared. bouldering destinations seem to go like that - first the secret spot, then at least known but not yet "destinations", then some strong people come and climb some hard problems that get into the mags, then the boulderers show up in throngs and it becomes a "cool" area, then a little while later people say, "what?! oh nobody really goes there anymore, but have you heard of THIS place yet?..." and the cycle goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by hikerwa: I can see dynomuncher probably not being the climber that we'll see reaching the age of 80... i plan on reaching 80, but i'd be fine with 40 if I had 80 years worth of experiences packed into it. You should hike up your skirt, pull out the string and live a little! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by todd: then last year a lot of big name boulderers came through and sent some hard problems. they didnt really make that big a deal of it (i know because they were staying at my house) . clod that is soo cool you of to let carlos and rodchester stay at your house like that.....you trying not to be name cropper by not dropping names but still trying to imply that you in da shiznit..... dats foonie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyno_merchant Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 quote: Originally posted by todd: a lot of the areas in rmnp frequented by the bouldering crowd are not really backcountry - in the summer the huge parking lots are full by 8am and the tourists usually go farther in the "backcountry" then the boulderers. having spent the better part of 5 years there climbing (not bouldering), its funny how the boulderers just show up all the sudden. people have been bouldering at places like emerald lake and lake haiyaha for a while, but the park was never really a bouldering destination. then about a year or two ago it started getting more popular, then last year a lot of big name boulderers came through and sent some hard problems. they didnt really make that big a deal of it (i know because they were staying at my house) but as soon as it hit the mags, all of the sudden the park is THE place to boulder, and all the kids come out with their pads. theyll probably disappear as quickly as they appeared. bouldering destinations seem to go like that - first the secret spot, then at least known but not yet "destinations", then some strong people come and climb some hard problems that get into the mags, then the boulderers show up in throngs and it becomes a "cool" area, then a little while later people say, "what?! oh nobody really goes there anymore, but have you heard of THIS place yet?..." and the cycle goes on. when i went there i felt really unconfortable about bouldering, mostly because of the signs about staying on the main trail and the fact that the environment is so fragile. do you think that people should be bouldering there at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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