First ascent registry proposal

[pindude]

Interesting proposal--a great idea IMHO--by Karl Baba, as posted on rc.com:

 

Source

 

The opinions of the first ascent party have always been given serious consideration by the climbing community. When it comes to adding bolted anchors or additional protection bolts to routes, we ask the first ascent party's opinion.

 

Some first ascents were put up in a bold style and were intended to stay that way. Other first ascents were put up in a bold style because the party ran out of time or bolts. Some first ascensionists have changed their outlook on protection with the advent of sport climbing or because of family responsibilities, and others feel the same way that they did when they put up the route.

 

One problem we have as a climbing community is that we really don’t know what the feelings of many first ascensionists are. We tend to assume they all sit around wearing wool underwear with a sense of indigence that people are putting up well protected routes in modern times. Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

I have talked to a number of first ascenders who say that they intend to go back to some of their dangerous routes and add anchors or protection bolts so more people could enjoy the routes. On the other hand, I’m sure just many first ascenders would like their routes left alone. They want their bold statement to stand untouched.

 

I just saw the movie about Yosemite Climbing history called Vertical Frontier. It’s a good history. It was shocking to see how many of the pioneers of our sport died in the past few years. It’s important to record the views of those who forged our climbing heritage before they pass from the scene.

 

I have a proposal that I’m putting out there in case somebody has the inspiration, energy, and webspace to take action on it. It is to offer climbers who put up new routes a place to register their stories, preferences and intentions regarding their creations. Volunteers could contact veteran first ascenders from the past and record their views for the consideration of future climbing communities. The first ascenders themselves could post information about their creations.

 

They could ask that their routes remain unchanged. They could relate how the route came about. They could give their view of local ethics. They could stipulate that they think adding anchors or bolts in certain places would be appropriate. They could advocate retrobolting by anyone, or established locals, or no one. They could state an intention to work on the route themselves. They could put the evolution of their route into the hands of future climbers based on local consensus. We don't know how climbing will change in the next 300 years, but those future generations won't understand each area's historical ethics and culture unless we them tell. Harding would have something different to say than Robbins. Bachar might have a different view than Kauk.

 

Rockclimbing.com has an extensive worldwide route database that can be edited and expanded by users. A workable registry can be worked into the database with the support of the owners of Rockclimbing.com

 

I am not proposing a tool to promote retrobolting or to ensure routes remain unchanged. I am merely offering a tool to promote communication and self regulation by the climbing community. It’s better for everyone if we can minimize bolt wars and stress among each other. There should still be climbers 300 years from now enjoying the routes that were put up in the past 60 years. They won’t know what the first ascenders intended for those routes unless we ask. If the popularity of climbing sustains, the pressure to change routes will increase. Let’s do something to help those future generations of climbers come to agreement.

 

I intend to post this on a number of internet forums but am posting it here first to await feedback since I cited rockclimbing.com as a place where a first ascender registry might be located. Wouldn't want to make assumptions. Feedback? Conerns? Support?

 

Peace

Karl Baba

 

Edit: Rockclimbing.com is now behind us. I'm posting this info gradually on other forums to create a period of public comment. This is a community project, not "my baby" I repeat, this is not a dating service for retrobolters but a record of individual histories and view that come together to make our collective climbing awareness. The future will undoubtedly bring change though, and consideration of future route change/protection should be a part of the dialog.

 

Second Edit:

After reading many comments during this "Public Comment Period" it is obvious that concerns about retrobolting are foremost in people's minds, and the advantages of knowing the FA party's opinion about the any potential route changes in the future are not particularly valued.

 

Folks seem to want the FA party's take on history and the local area, and some interesting stories about their routes.

 

Personally, it seems to me like parents telling the school, please don't give our teenage daughter any sex education! It will just make her want to go get drilled!

 

It is true, though, that information has consequences. Obscure Routes that get "supertopoed" skyrocket in popularlity and big wall routes that get "ASCA'ed" are morelikely to become trade routes.

 

But this isn't about me so...

 

I think it would be wise to get first ascender's general comments under the listing of their name, and anecdotes about their specific routes can go under the "FA notes" for each route if they care to share stories.

 

No enouragement should be given to comment on bolting issues particular to the route and hopefully each general area can have a link to a local ethics summary, reprinted with permission if possible, from the local guidebook or paraphrased by a local. No blanket "will or intent about my routes in general" should be asked for either.

 

I wouldn't prohibit talk of bolting or chopping cause I think free speech is critical, but the introduction to the registry can shape how it is used. If we don't make it about bolting, it won't tend to be. I think the concerns expressed over retrobolting issues should be respected.

 

The issues and problems that arise from bolting issues still be with us though. Perhaps a better understanding of the past will help. Even if it doesn't, we will have a better history than just the polished accounts of the sponsored folks detailing their cutting edge climbs.

 

Peace

 

Karl

 

Last edited by karlbaba on Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

[MysticNacho]

Beckey would be on the computer typing until the day he died!

[lummox]

fucking troll

[Dru]

"volunteers could contact veteran first ascenders and ask them for their views"

 

Hey guys! I just talked to this dude named Croft. He says go ahead and grid bolt EVERYTHING he ever put up!

[Szyjakowski]

hey yoder said that too. oh wait he already does that!

hahahahaha J/K!

[pindude]

lummox said:

fucking troll

 

troll a.k.a. trolling (def.): The act of posting a message in a newsgroup that is obviously exaggerating something on a particular topic, hoping to trick a newbie into posting a follow-up article that points out the mistake. See Also: flame bait , lurk.

 

No, lummox, this is not a troll--no tricks or exaggerations, and posted for actual discussion. After all, this is a discussion board. I was expecting as much, but was hoping for at least some substantive discussion. No worries, I don't take this stuff personally.

 

--pindude

[KarlBaba]

Hey PNW folks

 

Steve told me he posted the registry proposal here, so I thought I would drop in to clarify the intent, receive flames, and hope some of Ya'll would contribute your words to this commumity project or encourage the FA folks that you know to record their wisdom.

 

We've abandoned the idea of referring to the issue of changing routes in any way. It was too sensitive a subject. It might have been a tool to help folks deal with the inevitable issue in the future, but we'll just have to trust those future folks to do the right thing.

 

The Project we are left with is a people's history of climbing areas and routes as told by the pioneers. They'll probably be dead and gone in 75 years but the stone remains. We're hoping folks will give their perspective on the history of their involvement in climbing, how their routes came about and how they fit into the evolving ethic of their era.

 

Unfotunately, my initial post focused on the issue of change way too much because of my realization that the Old School folks wouldn't be around to consult for much longer. I'd love to completely rewrite that first post after considering everybody's responses, but then it would make them look stupid for overreacting to a harmless idea when their responses were valid.

 

Peace

 

Karl

[mattp]

Karl-

 

I had some mixed reactions to my initial reading of your proposal but upon reading this "clarification" I feel rather strongly that it is those who are so reactionary about fearing retrobolting who have really done all of us a great disservice and not people like yourself who are trying to offer one part of a solution to the issue. Yes, I understand the idea that rock climbing has been "dumbed down" by sport bolting and I am glad there are some who fight hard to stem the great proliferation of bolts on every mountain wall, crag and boulder in the universe, but the problem I see is that they seem to think they must be absolutely rigid about this and quite often they are able to completely stifle any discussion. The fact is that times have changed. Savage personal attacks and unbending dogma are not going to turn back the clock to an earlier age. They do, however, alienate different factions within our group and prevent the exchange of ideas. In today's world, the feared fresh-from-the-gym climber who got a bosch drill for their birthday has nobody to turn to if they want to talk about drilling ethics or techniques and the result of all the acrimony is that they are MORE likely to screw up rather than LESS.

 

 

Even though I did think it odd the way you linked a historical record to the future maintenance or alteration of rock climbs, you should not be "forced" to offer this explanation that comes more in the form of a retraction. In my view, the balance and thoughtfulness that we seek can only come about through informed and honest discussion.

[Off_White]

Karl: It sounds like an interesting but vast project. What form will the registry take? I assume you're familiar with Bivouac.com? I think they have a pretty good format for an informational database. Lummox does have a point about it being a lot of work for a lot of people, but I think there are plenty of obsessive-compulsives out there to get the ball rolling.

 

Its too bad the change issue had to be shelved, making it more of a historical archive than an active resource. I have a friend who's made a stack of FA's, some of which are quite scary, and in his older and wiser condition he'd like to see some of them made safer, so that good routes can see more traffic. As noted, there really is no forum that allows for the blessing of retrobolts by a first ascent party, but it may be that something national in scope is not the way to address it. You might want to take a peak at the current thread titled "Static Point Bolts" for a discussion around the issue at a regional crag up here.

 

 

[lummox]

Edited June 5, 2003 by erik

[Szyjakowski]

"The first ascenders themselves could post information about their creations. "

 

routes are not creations...they are rockclimbs.

 

"We've abandoned the idea of referring to the issue of changing routes in any way. It was too sensitive a subject. It might have been a tool to help folks deal with the inevitable issue in the future, but we'll just have to trust those future folks to do the right thing."

 

Ok, sure some oldskewl hardmen are dead. so, deal with it...altering a rock to benefit "new climbers" is a waste of your time and energy.

like i said in the static thread. go find your own line and climb it. oh and what about all those "newera hardmen" who don't say shit about what they've done when, why, or how. This project seems vast and difficult to navigate like outerspace and not worth jammn bandwidth up with.......

[erik]

i am wondering thou....certainly it is nice that people put forth effort and establish new routes. but do they truly own the route??

 

i would imagine that most climbs lay on public property, so essentially they belong to all americans, climbers and non climbers.

 

should we consider the non-climbers??? more so then the fa'ers??? since they equally own the land.

 

also should there be a period of time that once expires to contact the fa'ist would be null??

 

and i completly disagree with having to contact the fa'er to replace old/mankey fixed hardware. fixed protection was placed to be bomber and thus always should be.

 

well this is prolly random, so i will stop.

 

way to keep thinking karl, our the survival of our sports history relys on it.

[catbirdseat]

You have to start somewhere. Put the historical database in place first. Then worry later about whether you want to turn it into a change control resource. Break the task down into manageable pieces.

[mattp]

I believe a route-reporting database was at one time thought to be one of the possible functions of this bulletin board but because it has been set up to so easily lend itself to back-and-forth discussion, it has become more of a chat room and less of that sort of resource. Meanwhile, there have been a couple of proposals and I believe there are some old threads on the idea of an on-line version of something like a NW climbing journal.

 

 

[KarlBaba]

The reality is the FA party does not own the stone. What happens on the rock will always reflect the balance between local ethical consensus, land management rules, and the passion and commitment of those on the extremes who manifest their opinions through chopping or retrobolting.

 

I think it would be preferable if the battlefield for managing our climbing area was around the campfire and on the net rather than on the stone.

 

This is a bit like the MidEast conflict. Folks lose their minds so things go nowhere, so it's hard to implement a road map. So it seems like building understanding and communication between climbers will help things while dealing directly with the painful issues just leads folks to dig in their heels.

 

Understanding the history, ethics and perspectives of first Ascent folks helps us develop our local consensus though, and is just plain interesting and entertaining. Lots of this registry is going to stuff like "I was scared of this route for a long time but my girlfriend dumped me and I didn't care anymore so I promised my partner a case of beer and we...."

 

There is going to be freedom of speech for First Ascent Parties and those who feel strongly one way or another about any ethical issue will say what they think and the community can argue about it if they want.

 

There is more info and our whole retrobolting fear issue discusssion at

 

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=31962&forum=14

 

Unless Rockclimbing.com changes their mind, this registry is going to happen and probably soon. It remains to be seen if it will catch on or not. They have a lot of resources and a worldwide database. Hopefully the folks on this site will be able to make use of the info as it applies to where you climb.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Peace

 

Karl

[lummox]

KarlBaba said:

Understanding the history, ethics and perspectives of first Ascent folks helps us develop our local consensus though,

what 'local consensus'? karl baba you should be old enough to know that few climbing areas have a 'consensus'. its usually just the loudest most ornery mother fuckers that impose their will upon others. your registry will just shift that to another venue at best. so fuck you and that 'registry' authoritarian cocksucking bullshit.

you just trying to play the same game as the man. dancing for the man just aint where its at.

[Szyjakowski]

playing the same game as BIGBROTHER...

like i said waste of bandwidth......

[bird]

lummox said:

KarlBaba said:

Understanding the history, ethics and perspectives of first Ascent folks helps us develop our local consensus though,

what 'local consensus'? karl baba you should be old enough to know that few climbing areas have a 'consensus'. its usually just the loudest most ornery mother fuckers that impose their will upon others. your registry will just shift that to another venue at best. so fuck you and that 'registry' authoritarian cocksucking bullshit.

you just trying to play the same game as the man. dancing for the man just aint where its at.

 

 

 

Yeah, people like yourself ruin a lot of cool ideas.

[lummox]

bird said:

lummox said:

KarlBaba said:

Understanding the history, ethics and perspectives of first Ascent folks helps us develop our local consensus though,

what 'local consensus'? karl baba you should be old enough to know that few climbing areas have a 'consensus'. its usually just the loudest most ornery mother fuckers that impose their will upon others. your registry will just shift that to another venue at best. so fuck you and that 'registry' authoritarian cocksucking bullshit.

you just trying to play the same game as the man. dancing for the man just aint where its at.

 

 

 

Yeah, people like yourself ruin a lot of cool ideas.

bird. reality is a mother fucker huh? one persons 'cool idea' is anothers stupid one.

if this registry idea gets going i predict wankstains like rc.coms pass-the-pitons-prick will be the main attraction. i say fuck that shit.

[KarlBaba]

Lummox: I was entranced by everything you had to say until I realized I was just staring at the left hand corner of your post.

 

This has nothing to do with big brother. We should work together to make it so big bro doesn't have an excuse to come regulate us.

 

This is just about recording the history of the sport by the folks who pioneered it.

 

There is often a general feeling of local consensus that is often a bit unclear. Go try to put a sport route on the gritstone in the UK and see what happens.

 

Pete on RC.com doesn't do FAs so don't worry about him being the attraction.

 

If you think the rc.com has some wankers, then maybe you'll agree that they will benefit from the history and anecdotes of the original hardmen.

 

Peace

 

karl

[lummox]

KarlBaba said:

Lummox: I was entranced by everything you had to say until I realized I was just staring at the left hand corner of your post.

 

This has nothing to do with big brother. We should work together to make it so big bro doesn't have an excuse to come regulate us.

 

This is just about recording the history of the sport by the folks who pioneered it.

 

There is often a general feeling of local consensus that is often a bit unclear. Go try to put a sport route on the gritstone in the UK and see what happens.

 

Pete on RC.com doesn't do FAs so don't worry about him being the attraction.

 

If you think the rc.com has some wankers, then maybe you'll agree that they will benefit from the history and anecdotes of the original hardmen.

 

Peace

 

karl

good luck dude. internet luddites and antisocial types will probably refrain.

[lummox]

i was just thinking of my own modest fa efforts. dozens of climbs on three different continents eight different countries. i cant remember most of them let alone have the desire to write down anything. guess thats why i dont climb for fucking glory.

[KarlBaba]

But Lummox, you're communicating here. If you can't remember your FA's you could just create the routes in the rc.com database if they aren't there (easy) and then just relate your views and experience as a climber under your listing.

 

Then, in the year 2055, when folks discover your routes, they can go find out, what's a Lummox anyway and what was he thinking?

 

PS Some of my best friends are Lummox, see

 

http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/Crest_Jewel_Direct.html

 

Peace

 

Karl

[KarlBaba]

Hey PNW Folks

 

Thank to everyone who contributed their views to the Registry Idea. I will include the introduction to the evolved plan below.

 

If you like the idea, maybe you'll help us spread the word to collect the stories.

Peace

 

Karl

 

this is at

 

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32934

 

This is my proposed introduction to the First Ascender Registry. This thread can be used to develop resources and structure for the registry, coordinate information gathering, and discuss issues.

 

It refers to changes that are coming soon to Rockclimbing.com but aren't implemented yet. Stay tuned!

 

peace

 

Karl

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

First Ascender Registry Introduction

 

Technical Rockclimbing is a relatively new sport but one which is bound to endure. Many of the pioneers and vanguards of rockclimbing are still with us. Inevitably, those people will pass with time while the routes that they established will live in geologic time. If humans can save themselves and this planet, there will be climbers enjoying the classic routes hundreds of years from now.

 

We have a unique opportunity to give something to those future generations of climbers. We can still record the history of the sport through the opinions and stories of those who helped develop it. If we do that, we will have a people’s history of the sport that won’t be narrowly focused on one area, or the achievements of a few. We will have an intimate view about how different people experienced the evolution of rockclimbing.

 

The climbing community has always accorded some value to the style and ethics displayed by the first ascent party. Style and ethics became a moral battleground in countless climbing areas. It’s a dramatic story of preservation versus development, of change versus tradition, and a tale of inspiration, ego, and discovery. The story of new routes goes beyond the technical difficulties to include friendship with partner, membership in community, and living large.

 

The culture of climbing has constantly changed and will continue to do so. More folks are introduced to climbing at the gym nowadays rather than outside in nature. Sport climbing has greatly influenced the development of new routes. These changes are going to influence the culture of the sport. Many climbers have strong opinions about how trad and sport routes should coexist in major climbing areas. Our Sport has been mostly self-regulated, and most climbers want to keep it that way. Our climbing resources are finite. We have to use them wisely together.

 

Climbing has always been a breeding ground for advocates of harmony with nature. Many of the pioneers of the environmental movement were first climbers. I believe that the process of change in rockclimbing will be smoother and more positive if the future generations have the record of the opinions, perspectives and anecdotes of those climbers who established the routes.

 

I also believe that climbing will be more fun if we can share in the adventure of those who were on the route first.

 

The First Ascent Registry works like this. The first ascender creates a profile under their name. They tell us whatever they want to share about their experiences and opinions as a climber. They can write a little or a lot. They can tell us epic campfire stories or share the ethos of their adventures. They can tell us what climbing means to them. There is freedom of speech, but a climber cannot discuss racist, sexually explicit, pornographic, or criminal acts or use profanity since those are the rules for all communication on the website. I’m sure we will be able to get the truth out anyway.

 

Each route in the Rockclimbing.com database has a field for “FA Notes” The first ascender can easily create their route in the database if it isn’t already there, and link it to their profile. The “FA Notes” field gives the climber a chance to tell the story of a particular route. They can write a quick comment or a long story.

 

Each route will also have a place for everyone else’s comments about the route, beta, trip reports and feedback.

 

Not every old school climber will jump on the net and fiddle with our database. That makes this people’s history a community project. We need to talk to the pioneers of routes and record their stories with permission to put them in the public domain. To avoid a few pranksters from spoiling what cold be a great resource, those who wish to volunteer to collect data from other climbers will need to contact the manager of the area that contains the route or some other rockclimbing.com administrator to be authorized to post FA Data.

Let’s collect the history of our sport and pass it on. The Internet makes a worldwide database of history possible and free to all. You can make a difference in a unique experiment in history.