gyro

Sorry, I'm too stubborn! I'll slowly drown in spray before I call fowl (cock sucker).

Two points. This thread obviously is not about you and your dog. This is spray. Never complained about the spray, just questioned myself for joining. Also: So, jackass, everyone else can talk about dogs on trail but me? Bug off, bug.

Don't know why I'm bothering to way in on this spray fest... I hike with my dog off leash all the time, but I pick out of the way trails, the kind that don't have any signs on them. If I come across a person, which is rare, my dog is trained so that I say "heel" and it drops back behind me instead of about 10' ahead. Never had a problem except for one time a lady near the trail head started giving me grief about not having him on a leash even though he didn't do anything, look at her, bark, etc... I basically told her to mind her own business and talk to me if my dog does something to bother her other than exist. That said I can understand people being concerned about dogs, and have had some bad encounters with aggressive dogs that weren't under proper control. Protect you and yours, complain to the owner, and move on with your life. Not all dogs are bad, anymore than all people are bad because one person was a jackass. No one wants to see aggressive dogs on trail, but no reason to freak out about them. As far as waiting by trail heads to pepper spray someone, dude, that is messed; why go looking for trouble?

Yeah, but you can introduce your daughter to people, she likely goes to school, and can be visibly seen and physically interacted with. Not so with god. Look, you can believe anything you want. But without proof, tangible proof that can be experienced by everyone, don't expect people to just nod their head when you assert the reality of your god. Especially considering the climate around the more fundamentalist sects trying to force their dogma on the rest of the world. It doesn't make for great relations with non-christians. As far as climbing a 5.12, that is something you can take a picture of, whether you have one of it or not. Can you take a picture of god, and if so, how much for your camera?

An organizing force in the universe. god is not an office manager. So what is god? Choada asked a question that is impossible to answer objectively, since practically by definition god is going to be subjectively defined by individuals differently. As such I responded with a somewhat odd definition of god. Keep in mind I'm agnostic in the sense that I do not believe in god, but I do not believe that it is impossible for something god'ish to exist. There could be a god, but I've yet to see proof of it. However, I recognize the impossibility of disproving god. One simple reason you cannot disprove god is because since everyone has their own definition of god, there are bound to be definitions, like the one I gave, that defy being disproved. Do not confuse disproving acts of god with the existence of god. I also like how everyone complained about my definition, but gave no real serious alternative. So choada, still waiting on your objective proof disproving the existence of my version of god. Or we can all just agree that it can't be proven, empirically, one way or another.

An organizing force in the universe. Edit: Also, going out for a while, so don't expect a quick response to your disproval of every organizing force in the universe.

Remember, it goes both ways. Just as god cannot be disproved, god cannot be proven. Please demonstrate using strictly objective statements. To claim proof of existence or nonexistence, imho, requires an incredible level of conceit in ones own reasoning ability. If you think so little of the universe that you believe there must be a god, than I feel sorry for you. If you think so little of the universe that you know there is no god, than I also feel sorry for you. Whatever happened to looking up at a night sky from some remote ridge and indulging yourself in wonder? Why do you have to codify your beliefs one way or another, often without proof? Whether you believe in god or not, the universe is an awesome place.

There is no god. Prove it. You can't prove a negative. If you assert that god exists then provide proof of existence. The existence of nature simply proves the existence of nature. If you do not have proof that could withstand third party scrutiny then recognize that you have a matter of faith, not proof or fact. What you choose to believe is up to you, but if you try to assert unprovable things to the world then expect to be called on it. Likewise, you can't disprove the existence of a god. You might be able to provide alternate explanations for various things, but you can't prove non existence. Seriously, take a basic philosophy logic course.

Ideally you don't want to rest in terrain that is exposed to hazards be it exposure to falls, avy, rock fall, etc... That said, if no other options presented then you could do that. Personally though, if I was going to rest on an exposed, steep slope that I felt I should anchor in on, I might consider putting in an actual anchor like a picket or flute. Edit: To answer your question directly, I've never done that (that being using it as anchor while resting), so I would say I've never found it useful. I've used it as an anchor while climbing, and even in an ankle belay, but that wasn't in a spot where I felt like I could fall.

In my old neighborhood I saw a 30ish year old mom, born again, tell an 11 year old Indian (sub continent) girl in a Hindu family that she was going to hell for not believing in Jesus and the 11 year old started crying. Rabid atheists piss me off as well. Some people are just jerks, and they happen to have whatever belief, giving everyone else with that belief a bad rap as well. Being primarily agnostic with some spirituality thrown in I have had bad encounters with both believers and non believers of various denominations. They all have their jerks and trying to pick the group that has the most is about as futile as endeavors can get.

I enjoyed this comment. The mountains have always felt like my church and crucible more than any brick and mortar building made by man.

If he likes climbing I'd recommend a book called "Summit Routes" which has Washington's top 100 peaks grouped into geographic areas for trips. If hiking, I have a good hiking book with around a thousand trails at home I can look up the name for tonight. What does the guy like? Day hiking, backpacking, climbing, or drinking beer by a lake? edit: changed bear to beer. Better for drinking.

I'm going to play devils advocate for you. Before I get flamed, I don't support the legislation, but figure playing devils advocate makes people think about issues, so here goes. I'm not going to try and argue the mandating of PLB's across the whole state. Instead, I'll argue the merits of mandating their use at specific, high volume, mountains, AKA, Rainier, Baker, Adams, Helens. Because of the vast amount of inexperienced and ill prepared climbers that attempt these summits, and because of the substantial risks that exist on these mountains, implementing a low or no cost rental program as part of the climbing permit process would ensure that those climbers who would have climbed unprepared anyway now at least have one tool to alert rescue teams as to their location and notification of a dire situation. Making them mandatory and in low or no cost program as part of the climbing permit process would ensure that novices did not fail to receive a beacon because of cost purposes. This idea is similar to many ski areas that require special equipment to ski out of bounds, notably beacon, probe and shovel. End devils advocate. I just can't argue that point anymore, I disagree with it too much. Additionally, I wrote my district reps about this bill and expressed my opposition along with some personal experiences of why it won't help people. Hoping this bill goes up in flames. Oh, and I do actually own a beacon, I just don't want to be told to carry it if I'm not feeling like it.

Yet you seem to be trying to define climbing as not including scrambles. So again, what is climbing by your definition. Class 4 rock is a scramble and most people I know would consider it a climb. The bugler 100 are chock full of scrambles. I know you are trying to keep the sight from being watered down, and I'd agree that TR's that have absolutely nothing to do with climbing probably should be left off, but to say that scrambling is not climbing is just crazy to my way of thinking. Unless you define scrambling different than me.

So what is climbing? Only vertical? Only 4th class plus rock? Only 5th class rock? Only things that call for rope from exposure? Only thing that the community deems cool? I think scrambling is as much climbing as anything else. Three points plus of contact, off trail, going up peaks? Sounds like climbing to me.

I guess bad terminology on my part. If all of the snow and ice has melted I don't really consider it a glaciated climb. I should have said I would never do a climb that involved snow fields or glaciers without crampons and ice axe. That being said, sometimes it is hard to know what the conditions are before hand. Places like Adams that get lots of climbers are easy to get current conditions on, but other peaks information is harder to get, so usually I bring crampons and ice axe unless I have solid beta.

I don't think so. Adams is a big mountain with an easy route up that makes people forget it is a big mountain. In ideal conditions you won't need that gear, and me personally I'm comfortable leaving a rope behind for the south spur route. That being said, I'd never set out to summit a glaciated peak without crampons and ice axe, no matter how comfortable I am with the peak, and it is pretty appalling that someone would tell a beginner that they don't need such gear. With the right conditions Adams will kick your butt the same as any other mountain of its size.

So I could go take the mountain in winter via south spur and not need crampons or ice axe? Come on, you can't be telling people that they don't need crampons and not even mention factors like time of year or weather. I've done winter climbs of adams when the whole route above tree line was iced hard. I'd never recommend a novice forgo basic gear like an ice axe when approaching a summit they haven't reached before. Once they have done it they can decide for themselves what level of risk they are ok with. And as far as the mules go, they took them up and down in late summer. Just because you've never experienced conditions that require that gear doesn't mean it doesn't exist on that mountain. medicsandy, Mtguide had awesome advice.

Thanks a ton for all the advice, I'm looking forward to getting over to the west side of Washington, and this should be a good route to welcome us this spring/summer. I'm starting to think that a bivy on the summit is sounding like a fun way to go, so thanks again on all the advice.

Thanks for all the replies. I did try a search and waded through the first 600 results of "mt stuart" but didn't find a whole lot relevant. And thanks for pointing me to alpine lakes, I feel silly for missing that description. We are thinking of doing the CNR, but are not trying to do a car to car. We are thinking of driving over, hiking in and camping, getting an alpine start the next morning, climb/descend all day, and camp a second night, then hike out on the third day. Do you think a hike in, start, and bivy 2 day trip would work better than the three day with one full day for climbing? Will definitely be going as light as possible, and thanks for all of the advice. As for Sherpa Glacier, how early is early season for Stuart? What is the last month you would choose it to descend?

Hope this is in the right place. North Cascades says everything north of Stevens Pass, and south cascades says everything south of Rainier, but Stuart is in between, so hopefully their isn't a mid cascades section I missed. Me and a partner are looking to do the North Ridge route this spring/summer. Neither of us have been in that area much so figured I'd ply the wisdom of the masses. We were thinking of approaching from the south, and setting camp around Ingalls lake/creek, and then doing a full day up and back to sleep at camp again. Any recommended gear, camp sites, warnings, special descent routes, or time of year recommendations would be appreciated. I found a West ridge TR on this site, and read the North Ridge description over on SP, but was wondering if there is anything else useful to know about Stuart.

I agree with your post in general except that they do frequent Washington. http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/ That is a link that shows a map of Grizzly recovery zones from the US fish and wildlife. I've seen Grizzly twice backpacking in the Pasayten. That being said, they didn't bother me, I just went the other way, hung food in trees away from camp along with any odoriferous like toothpaste, etc... Had a much more difficult time with the mountain goats that chased us off Amphitheater peak and circled our camp by Upper cathedral lake for hours trying to get our boots. In general, always hike as if you could encounter a large predator whether that be bear, cougar, alligator, etc... Don't smell like prey, don't act like prey, and don't sleep with food or things that smell like it.

Yeah, total agreement on the shovel. This is the kind of situation (the people getting stuck) that makes me feel stupid for even trying to give advice for what they did wrong because it is so obvious. I just don't understand people's brain dead zombie following of electronics devices sometimes, apparently without any idea for the limitation of their vehicles either. Even if they trusted the GPS to have picked a correct route, why would you keep driving in conditions your vehicle isn't made for? I just don't get these people, and I think the above call for motorists to carry SARSAT devices is hilarious.

I've actually made these GPS maps before, both basic topo, as well as comprehensive, routable maps. It is essentially unfeasible for the map makers to be able to know the condition of a particular road during a particular season. That said, most GPS units give a weighted preference to state roads when choosing a route, so I am surprised that a forest service road was chosen, but it does happen. It is up to the user to tell the device that they are only interested in state routes, and they should be fine. I could expound on the technical difficulties of it all but think I would probably just bore everyone. Also, the database is I'm sure data harvested from government sites.

For the first few years I really got into backpacking and later more and more alpine terrain, I eschewed most forms of technology beyond a map and compass (not that I had money for them as a college student anyway). About a year ago I finally bought a simple Garmin eTrex GPS on sale. After getting sticker shocked on the price of topo maps I made my own (helps to be a programmer) and took it out on some simple climbs around the cascades. It was pretty awesome, though I was pretty skeptical to start with and it took a while for me to figure it out. For me, a GPS is a handy tool to double check my orienteering, as opposed to a first line. The climbs I took it on it performed well and if I had been following it alone it would have kept me on route. I always have a topo map and compass anyway though, which for some go light backpackers/climbers would make it seem like dead weight to bring along a GPS. For me I think it is kind of cool to be able to take waypoints of interesting places, mark new routes, etc... and in the case of emergency, have one more tool to work with (one time while winter backpacking I fell into a river while reading my map and my map was toast). Also, there is a big difference between car GPS systems, and ones made for backpacking. In short, I think they are a nifty tool in conjunction with a map and compass, and shouldn't be used to replace either of those. I would second Buckaroo on the lithium batteries, much lighter, last longer, and resist cold. My headlamp and GPS use the same batteries so that is handy as well. I've never lost signal in forest canopy, but have had trouble if I am in a narrow canyon.