Water

no, its not. fwiw we had plans to ski it in early june. the wind had other plans for us that night. wind kept most parties from summitting the mountain during that phase, but, success was had later in july, sans ski gear.

I'll just throw it out there, what about White Salmon? Its still WA.. 40min to Mt. Hood Meadows. 50min to Mt. Adams. Goat Rocks a bit further (in summer). Columbia river gorge with lots of year around activity. certainly not the variety of alpine terrain around towns mentioned above but, take a gander, it may call to you/Hood River right across the way in OR. Theres a little different note with the Gorge (watersports, low elevation), and its more towards the dry-side of the E/W spectrum than towards the wet-side.

ahhhh hell no.. bump. anyone have any info? would love to hear the nit and grit if this is a change, legal standing, etc. Is that upper parkinglot a state lot? federal? does timberline lease it? snopark pass do the clearing, or is tline snowcats taking that over? etc. i'll raise some stink about this if its a move to try to reclaim 25 spots~ for skiers by trying to bounce out overnighter bc'ers. i know you can park overnight at the lot at the base of tline road on 26 by the ODOT yard. And cooper spur snowpark at 3800 on the NE side, and the bennet and barlow pass snowparks..

ortovox 3+ beacon, $239 on SAC right now. this beacon is nifty, takes only one AA battery.

the arva axis was up on steepandcheap.com for $225 or something ridiculous earlier this week. deals can be had, a bit. thats a modern 3 antenna beacon.

deals are avail. I got my boots in 2011 as a 3 or 4 year old boot already, but for $299. Yes they weigh 4.5lbs each but meh. Likewise found a modern rockered etc blemished ski for $299. Between the two I saved a fair bit vs $500+ for each of those items. harder to find binding deals.

similar to JDCH two years ago I took up skiing. Mostly I was shit tired of watching people buzz by me on the volcanoes while I trudged or postholed back down. Prior to this it had been 20~ years since I skied (use to do it once a winter as a kid in Michigan). It came pretty quickly, that first year I skied adams SW chutes, probably around day '15' or so of skiing for the season--not super pretty, but, I didn't fall or snowplow down it either, not that its a hard ski but it was nice to ski exit that volcano instead of walk down and see dividends so quickly. One thing with the lifts--down here in pdx at least Timberline Lodge offers a spring pass for something like $120? I forget, but it pays for itself with two visits, starts in March or early April and goes until June (?). I got a ton of skiing in on that my first year, with plentiful amounts of fresh snow on many days. And its mostly great mellow/moderate terrain for learning. I think Bachy and I'm sure areas up in WA have some spring passes. the hardest part for me was the money for this activity. skis. boots. bindings. skins. probe. saw. transceiver. ski crampons. whippet. spring pass, occasional full price tickets, avy class. ... now looking at roof rack. not that you need every bit of that right away.. its worth it though, so much winter fun, days that are shit for climbing high are now transformed to fun in the trees. and turning around on routes is no longer a defeat in the same way, but time to go from one mode of fun and pursuit to another. Every bit up is a gain for the down, even if you dont top out on objectives, I really enjoy that.

sounds like no way enough snow to ski eh?

by the same token there is a program called RMaps (simple) that is free and allows you to download all sorts of maps for offline use (google/bing sat hybrid views, google terrain, USFS maps, etc). A slightly more complex (I don't like the UI) one that is free is OruxMaps. I use RMaps and have most of western north america at a high level downloaded in satellite, google terrain.. then in zoomed in areas (wallowas, cascades, olympics) I have max zoom google terrain/sat imagery for where i'll camp, and of course the USGS/USFS maps. So far use has been fantastic.

http://irunhikecamp.wordpress.com/2013/10/03/day-164-the-end/ thru-hikers told the PCT is closed. I laugh. at the absurdity.

I see G3 dropped their Saint/Spitfire/etc and has just gone to calling their touring series Zen Oxides with some variations. Two years ago when I was shopping the consensus I found for a 1-quiver ski for cascades what I planned (year round climb/skiing) was 90-100mm underfoot. Now it seems like everyone says 100 or just north of that. Read a review or a forum from 6-7-10 years ago, and 100 under foot is spoken of like it is a real fat ski. I think attitudes and gear change more than the snow. I got a bud who is still on some 6 or 8 yr old k2 Shuksans (80-85 underfoot?) and he seems to have an absolute ball on powder days hootin and hollerin. And hes skied them off the top of most of the volcanoes in the range in summer conditions. While I'm sure he'd like a new rig nobody can say he isn't have plenty of fun on what is now viewed as suboptimal gear (for powder at least) Are you only really wanting to descend from climbs quicker, like your goal is to climb first, then add the ski aspect on or are you looking to ski/tour in addition to climb? Because if you're really just looking to descend fast and the skiing itself is an after-thought, you probably won't be climbing after volcanoes huge dumps (avy issues--maybe thats just me?) I'd probably go light/skinny as possible on everything and not worry as much about the ski aspect--for average/most conditions you're talking about degrees of pleasure vs can/cannot get down the mountain--anything 75mm to 115mm will underfoot will function to get you down. Obviously tons of fresh and super skinny will suck as will icy hard pack with a flexy fat ski. on the other hand if you want to add touring (not just climbing) where you'll go out on big-dump days to tour below treeline as well as skiing corn in the summer, something 95-105 but still try to go light weight (like the ones Pete mentioned) will be great.

fair covered it broadly but well. recreation.gov? It is a subsidiary of ticketmaster. Just keep that in mind. Or at least everything I can research indicates as much--totally open to eat crow if someone can prove otherwise. But if you've ever enjoyed buying access to an event from ticketmaster you understand why it is such a joy to use recreation.gov to book something. And hey, who cares if a private company siphons off a few of yours dollars when you pay to access public lands your tax dollars pay to 'manage'... Well look in the access issues forum for the menagerie wilderness issue currently happening. A climber attempted to help the FS by relaying bird information obtained while following their rules. Ultimately climbers are getting pinched on access now. Agenda, vendetta, conspiracy, rule change, whatever, it aint benefiting climbers. In my own backyard you use to need a (FREE) permit to go to Pamelia Lake [Mt. Jefferson] or the Obsidian area [North and Middle Sister]. You use to be able to pick it up at the fancy Detroit Lake ranger station, for free. No more. It was too much of a bother for them so now you have to pay $6 to buy it online. Or if there is space, you pay $6 at the FS building. Credit card only (further disenfranchisement) It is my understanding (possibly incorrect) now that they also altered the rules and that you need to have that permit in order to 'pass through' these areas. So for a day climb of Mt. Jefferson's west rib, the most logical access being via Pamelia TH, you need to buy a $6 permit online. You can never get a refund if you can't make it. And if you can't go or need to change the dates, turn it to overnight, add people, etc, you must buy a new permit. They encourage you to cancel your permit if you can't make it (no refund) so others can go. Next year maybe I will spend $100 to book 12 party groups every good summer weekend just to fuck with this system. Certainly this is begging to see a court room and get thrown out. And please disabuse me of my understanding if I am wrong. But when I have spoke with the FS they have said yes you need said permit to 'pass through' the area. goddamn i am getting irate just telling this story. Fairweather described the Mt. St. Helens Debacle but I'll put some numbers on it for you. As of July 22nd 2012, the MSHI had sold 13,934 permits to climb MSH in 2012. MSHI is a private non-profit. The permits cost $22. $15 goes to the forest service [$209,000] who is on the hook for the road access, the camping, privy, enforcement... $2 goes to the online processing company/mailing you the piece of shit tyvek permit. $5 goes to MSHI. 13,934 * 5 = ??... ~$70,000. MSHI website use to say this was a mandatory donation (Waybackmachine.com) but now update to call it a service fee (fun semantics). They say it goes to the MSHI Climber's Brigade who 'maintain' the trail (free volunteers). What they spend it on is their events, guided trips, outreach, benefits? There is no possible way they could even hope to account for spending it to maintain the 'trail'. And they have admitted to as much when I have confronted them. Keep in mind they harvest $70,000+ a year from the public. To access a public resource. They could pay me $45,000 a year and I would be there 365 and pick up people's poop. Pete it is obvious this two year program does not intend any restrictions. It will be observation and monitoring and 'outreach', that is clear. But really will you bury your head in the sand that this can in no way be the footing upon which restrictions are built from in the future? It is totally in another realm or dimension all together? We would have to agree to disagree if you think so. I don't need underground conspiracy information or great reassurances from Adam (who ultimately controls jackdiddly for these two years) to call it as I see it.

Very well said AlpineMonkey. This is my hope for this, that the program runs its course and then gets no more funding and goes away. Observation of staging areas, monitoring of flora/fauna, this is all quantifying and creating baseline data of the area. Getting input from user groups helps to quantify people numbers. Now WW has something to work with other than ideology alone. As do FS admin. Sure it is funded by a WA state agency but you don't think information isn't available to DC when setting longer-term agenda/FS planning? Or when DC tells region 6 in 4 years that their funding is going to be cut by 20%, WRRD doesn't see an opportunity to use this resource to help make up the difference? Right now it is an educational outreach and resource monitoring. It is so incredibly naive to think that tomorrow (2, 3..5 years) it is not permit enforcement and flora/fauna protection. This 'two year grant' is easily the path to that. It is quite possible this does not lead that way, but history is not so favorable in that regard. Personally I think those involved orgs that represent climbers should have done all they could to get assurances that this in no way leads to additional restrictions (in the future) before they cooperated with it. But hey people were thrilled the FS reached out for input instead of acting unilaterally (which speaks to these people's normal perception of the FS, and the FS's poor track record in many arenas)

assume you can ski already? Can't speak from direct experience but was told the dyna offerings can be a challenge to learn on, more suited to the experienced. I demo'd some nanuqs or nunataqs (forget) two years ago and was really impressed by how light they were for the size. I was still learning a bit and just in a day i didn't do the topsheets any favors , seemed a bit fragile but its just a topsheet. I ended up with a G3 saint probably not light enough for you and maybe a bit wider than what you want but I think its a pretty solid workhorse, has held up great, worked in a variety of conditions. won't find much press or talk about them but I think they're an under-the-radar (lost in the pack) all-around cascades winner. The g3 spitfire is supposed to be pretty good, its a bit smaller in the waist than the saint. That said I'd highly consider the volkl offerings, they're good shit.

Pete why belittle AlpineMonkey's point? He didn't mention one thing about conspiracy. He talked about different environmental and outdoors group influences in DC along with policy that's been set in DC. Do you really think that someone in FS admin is thinking about how they can make a better trail for climbers? If anything they're looking for ways to cut spending and monetize any possible resource. The involvement of lots of outdoor groups signals lots of users. Not every instance of getting screwed over is as complex as an Alex Jones fan would have you think, sometimes its just plain to see you're getting screwed. Such as an Ohio congressman originated Fee Demo... "From 1965 until Fee-Demo was authorized in 1996 as a rider to the Department of the Interior appropriations bill, recreation fees were controlled by the provisions of 16USC460l(6a). Fee-Demo temporarily superceded them. With the passage of the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act (FLREA) in 2004 as a rider to the omnibus appropriations bill, Fee-Demo was revoked and the 16USC460l(6a) provisions were permanently repealed. The primary purpose of both Fee-Demo and FLREA was the repeal of the 16USC460l(6a) provisions, or so this author would contend. Repeal of this provision would not only permit land managers to collect fees for a wider range of products, goods, and services, repeal would also permit land managers to retain the fees they collect. By providing this alternative funding mechanism, Congress was free to slash allocated funding and to force land managers to become reliant upon user fees, concessionaire fees, public-private partnerships, volunteerism, and other funding." Excerpt from Privatization: An Overview. By Scott Silver

bump. Haven't been there but as you said...i submitted some comments. recommend others do the same. Email them to: Subject: Menagerie Seasonal Closure Boundary Change for Species Protection #38620 Amanda Colton 4431 Highway 20 , Sweet Home, OR, 97386 arcolton@fs.fed.us When it comes to peregrine protection, I like to let this statement from the US Dept. Fish and Wildlife Services stand for itself: "The peregrine falcon has the most extensive natural distribution of any bird in the world, limited only by high elevations, extreme heat, and extreme cold. It is found on all continents except Antarctica." -delisted from endangered species list and state level lists.

nice pictures (climbs and of fam/friends). what do you mean by career ending? retiring now that you've completed your desired climbs?

though the NW Forest Pass appears to be in its end-of-life...there have been a few significant court decisions against it in the last year. Things are being appealed but it does not look good. I have been testing them at a handful of THs and at least in OR and southern WA either I am getting very lucky or they are no longer enforcing while they maintain the signage. Anyways I've followed similar discussions on other outdoors sites, it seems from a high level the USFS desire is to concentrate recreation, especially into more accessible places, and to regulate/manage/permit/quota it. Oh, and 'harness' the power of the private market to deal with aspects of this, essentially hooking up the public teat into the private sector's wallet. But back to this at hand. Indeed whats done is done, and it is a two year program that seem somewhat fluffy in education, but hey if educational modalities alter behavior enough to mitigate whatever quantified impacts, then thats an easier path to walk. I think unfortunately the reality is the trend of permits/regulation has the inertia of a freight train behind it. As NoahT asked about other places that maybe had an issue, then got rangers then things improved, etc, does anyone know of a case of recreation where there was an issue (manufactured or real, or real but exaggerated a bit) where an educational campaign ameliorated the most pressing concerns and 'fixed' the problem to let it be sustainably-self managing? serious question. An actual avenue that all these outdoor clubs and associations could take with the USFS is to try to get reassurance that this won't lead to permits and quotas, or if they don't give such reassurance, try to get concrete benchmarks of what threshold of degradation or whatever has to occur that prompts that type of action. It would be great to get some type of formal assurance instead of entering interaction on good faith, being as one of the partners (USFS) has very little standing to trust. This is what I mean what you say can and will be used against you--those two employees on the ground might be fine people but the info they report, possibly freely given from these user groups/clubs, just provides justification for superiors to implement some fee structure or whatever other bullshit.

One other from their FB as I browsed more--they've got far more pictures of stuff than any text explaining their total job description: caption: "The climbers way of hanging food" That is an issue, as is the generalization. counterbalancing I'd like to see a fair bit more of this in high-use areas. So props to them for digging this, that ain't anyone's idea of a 'grand time'. but I personally wonder if a seasonal climbing ranger on a grant is needed to dig a pit toilet. Seems more fitting for an americorps crew of 17-19yr olds, just from a use of public monies, but hey a shitter is a shitter, amirite?

sorry i am not so grammatically pedantic as yourself Blake. both statements are bits of implied character assassination and are not germane to the discussion of the FS, which need not do anything but demonstrate its track record to display poor character. enjoy the new regulations and oversight as it comes. guess its good to be on the ground floor of it, if its coming one way or another. Again, is it thought this two year grant is to get things into some type of pattern/management and then be handed off to volunteers? Or is this a pilot for permanent seasonal roles? They've mentioned data collection and "the need for climbing specific programs". Is what is already listed the totality of their specific programs or what would those specific programs be?

First Sol suggests anyone voicing skepticism of climbing rangers and the FS needs to put up their work-party and bolt replacement resume now you suggest somehow one's username has any bearing on discussions on a climbing board. hah. If it matters, while Water may not be on my drivers license I have equally gone by this name among friends for years. That is great some of you have gone to bat for climbers. Sure lets hope for the best but don't forget anything you say can and will be used against you. Off the top of my head I can't think of an area that dropped the red-tape and permits and all that bullshit, but I can certainly think of more and more examples where red tape goes up. The past speaks for itself, what is more likely, this is a 2 year grant to try to get things in shipshape and help climbers keep routes clean then it gets passed off to volunteers? The writing is on the wall, they speak plenty of data collection and "The impacts caused by the increase in the climbing population have begun to get noticed and the need for climbing specific programs identified. The major impacts that have been noticed are de-vegetation, soil compaction, impacts to wildlife, safety concerns, and (over) use conflicts. " - You can bet this is a path to more regulation. I am sure those rangers are overall fine fellas doesn't mean they set much of an agenda long term if you look at FS management trends.

it is not this person's? (saw you sent them a PM). hows bout a TR even a mini one.. Jeff don't get enough love http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1111737/Re_Ice_Axe_Mt_Jefferson

apparently one's interactions, observation, and research about the FS leading to a negative outlook isn't exactly valid to share unless you've detailed how you've maintained X miles of trail and helped removed tat and replaced anchors. got it. I do not mean to directly bash "Adam", I am sure these two are good guys. But you can talk till you are blue in the face to to the lower level FS personnel. No matter how much I tell the district ranger or front desk person at the Detroit Ranger station for Willamette that I shouldn't have to pay $6 in addition to having a NWFP in order to climb Mt. Jeff's west rib by Pamelia lake, or North or Middle Sister by way of the Obsidian TH, that isn't going away. Some may see this as pure conflation of separate issues but I give that as an example of new restrictions on access as of 2013 in my own backyard. I can't help but see this climbing rangers program as getting their foot in the door on the way to more restriction and fees. There is a great GAO report on FS trails/bc maintenance from this summer. http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/655555.pdf "The Forest Service estimated the value of its trail maintenance backlog to be $314 million in fiscal year 2012, with an additional $210 million for annual maintenance, capital improvement, and operations." I just saw a figure separately the US Gov pays ~$500+ billion a year to private contractors. ~1/500th of that would take care of the FS's backlog 3 times over. Maybe I'm just sticking my head in the sand not wanting to face reality that there are a lot of people using an outdoor resource and that if nothing is done it will be broken beyond repair (plants or animals will go extinct, meadows and trees will never grow back, every square inch will be polluted with feces). But count me as a skeptic. And instead of just bashing here are some suggestions I personally stand by/do, obviously not a panacea to all the ills of the FS but doing what I see to help [i was never one for student government, I don't have the capacity to sit in lots of meetings and discussions, motions and bylaws, etc, but I'll add my two cents through comment periods]: -quit blowing money on shitters, picnic benches, and to-be-vandalized signs at THs in the middle of the woods -maybe scale back the ornate ranger offices (here in Oregon at least we got a bunch of gems.) -do trail maintenance when and where you can on your own, (clipping brush, moving logs, clearing waterbars), and/or volunteer with formal organizations to do more in-depth work -dig some pit toilets in some of the highest use areas, boom you've solved one of the biggest issues with increased numbers of people -introduce people to the outdoors and educate how not to leave a trace, be courteous of other users, use good judgment, etc. -don't go to popular areas/climbs on busy weekends if you like solitude, onus is on you to go when things aren't busy -donate to climbing and/or trails groups -be involved in climbing and/or trails groups -write to your congresscritters Good2go: No, that was made up by me and should have been clearer. It was just a theory, see above.

rad and goatboy you both offer good points. that said it is a bit naive to think that this is necessarily for the benefit of climbers. That doesn't mean that a steady and decent relation can't be built though. While those carrying out the job may have noble aims, it doesn't mean the position wasn't created to tighten the screws on climbers and give more oversight (revenue collection) to the group. "We have a significant number of people circumventing the lottery by doing long days" I only trust the buttfuckery of the forest service as far as I can throw them, they're bending over backwards to limit access as far as I've observed. Hell, over the course of a decade every single yearly summary PDF from each National Forest in OR and WA describing where your 'fees' have gone to has gone from quantifying the miles of trails maintained/bridges replaced to specifically calling out that 95% of your fees go to the 'amenities and services' people enjoy--with no mention of trails. They mention peregrine falcon protection.. (golden eagle too), not that i think human use should trump that animals or plants but goddamn the peregrine falcon "has the most extensive natural distribution of any bird in the world, limited only by high elevations, extreme heat, and extreme cold. It is found on all continents except Antarctica" - US Fish & Wildlife website. just wait till CBR and dragontail get closed to all climbing for months due to falcons. MOAR RANGERS PLS!

gems such as this: caption: "Knocking down illegal cairns on the approach to Colchuck Balanced Rock" My comment suggested there were rangers who perhaps were derelict in their duty in the National Forest of Vermont..by far more illegality by many orders of magnitude than 3 rocks stacked. ILLEGAL ROCKS!