Bob Loomis

Hi Valhallas, I cannot comment on the route's current condition. I climbed it, leading the pitches free, over 20 years ago. What prompted me to lead the route was the encouragement of the first ascentionist (with whom I was friends with at the time), who kept telling me I was missing out on a great climb, etc. What I am leading to is when I climbed the route it was pretty dirty--it obviously did not get climbed much back then either. I freed the route, but to do it I did a lot of brushing, blowing off dirt, pulling moss out, digging with my cleaning tool, etc., as I went. There was a time or two I nearly soiled myself from fear of falling. I found the route to be pretty "gutsy," at that time. I think this will always tend to be a somewhat "green" route--snow, rain, etc., tend to converge on that route, and since it does not get much traffic (which would tend to keep the route clean), the twin effect of being more wet than neighboring routes combined with infrequent climber traffic, means a somewhat "green" route most any day. I have lost touch with the first ascentionist. Even if I had not I would not want to speak in a representative manner--each can speak for him/her self. But knowing him as I once knew him I do not think that some cleaning and old bolt replacement will cause much of a "firestorm." If you were to put in added bolts which sanitized the route and deprived it of its "spice" that would likely elicit criticism--much the same kind of criticism as has occured at bold places such as Tuolumne Meadows, etc., which seek to retain their history and culture. I do not know if I helped much, but if there is helpful content in my posting then I am glad. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, All I can add to this thread is some anecdotal thoughts. I have taken two "for real" leader falls on vertical ice (i.e., more than several body lengths long). Both times the screw held. Both times the screw did not have a load limiting device (screamer, etc.)on it. Both times the ice into which the screw was threaded was suboptimal (average quality--not solid "blue"). Both times I was using a 10.5 mm rope (not overly "stretchy"). One time I was near the start of the lead, the other time about half way through the lead. This is not much data to go on, but it does suggest that screamers are definitely a good idea (I use them), though not absolutely essential to a safe lead. I have taken one leader fall on a screamer--it was while leading an aid pitch on El Cap, and the piece was not great so I added the screamer. Higher up a piece blew and I loaded the screamer. The screamer partially separated and the piece held (thankfully). On reflection I think the value of the screamer in that situation is limiting the "stop-start" action in an aid fall--i.e., fall, temporarily load the piece below--it blows, fall, repeat the process on the next piece below--i.e., the sharp load peaks and valleys which comes with "zippering" gear. I am not a scientist who has studied this in a controlled experiment, but my hunch is a screamer might be nice when the leader thinks "zippering" gear could occur. The down side to the use of anything like this is psychological dependency. The safe leader is one who can maintain his/her focus and emotional calm while on the sharp end. Part of this mental skill is the ability to maintain composure when things are less than ideal. Here is an extreme example--one time while in Leavenworth, at Castle Rock, I witnessed a climber back down from a lead because he had left his chalk bag in the car and felt "unsafe" leading with his partner's chalk bag. This was decades ago, but clearly this climber was not confident leading unless all the stars were aligned just right and all his gear was perfect. Such a mental state makes this climber weaker--i.e., less flexible, adaptable, perservering, etc. So in this context if an ice climber gets into the mindset that the only safe screw is a screw with a screamer, this mental state can actually put the climber at greater risk (ex., what happens when the leader drops a screamer, brought too few for all the screws on the lead, left them in the car at the trailhead, etc.). The ability to stay focused and calm when setbacks occur is integral to safety. My few leader falls on ice suggest that one can be fairly safe on lead without a screamer. That said, I use them, but not on every screw, just where I think the screw could use a little help. Cheers and safe climbing, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, I have had some experiences similar to Dane's. When I read all the posts I think the basic concept is, do not assume that what happens to you in your own country with your own bank/credit union, will be what happens to you when traveling abroad. One thing that has been mentioned but is worth a repeat is that with a CC purchase your consumer protection rights are stronger (at least under US law), i.e., warranty issues, return/refund issues, defects, parts missing, etc. Often when I am on the road I will end up buying some piece of gear, clothing, etc. Sometimes I get home and there is an issue. Resolving the issue long distance with the merchant can be problematic, but if the purchase was made with a CC, then the card issuer can take up the issue with the merchant (assuming you have your documentation in order), and resolve the issue quickly--and until resolved you do not have to pay the charge on your statement. The idea is to have a fun trip, and things like sitting in Radium like Dane mentioned (has happened to me) tends to take the fun out of the trip. So--travel smart:-) . Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, On Sunday, 16 October, I found an item of climbing gear at Minnehaha. I am sure the loss of this item would come to the attention of the owner. Describe the item of equipment correctly and we can work out how to get it back to you. Email me at >loomis@rescue.com<. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, One point to consider is "hidden" costs associated with a trip to Canada. First my disclaimer--I live in Spokane so Canada is where I tend to go. But be aware of some "hidden" costs when going to a foreign country (yes, that includes Canada) such as: a) international credit card and ATM surcharges; b) the "potential" for debit card "holds" which exceed the actual cost of the transaction--only some merchants do this, but they will not necessarily tell you until you find your account overdrawn and get hit with another fee; and c) mobile device roaming charges which can in one weekend come to several hundred dollars (I learned this the hard way) depending on location. Personally I really enjoy going to Canada any chance I can get, but one has to be a bit smart about the nature and source of some of these extra expenses because they can rapidly add up. So for example to limit ATM and credit card exchange fees I tend to go to an ATM once, withdraw the Canadian cash I think I will need plus some extra as buffer, then just use cash for the trip--one ATM and card transaction fee versus many. If I get to a bank during daylight hours M-F, I go into the bank and use the teller line--then there is zero ATM fee for the transaction plus the chance to talk to a nice Canadian. I virtually never use my debit card internationally to both limit transaction costs and increase my contractual consumer protection rights associated with a bad purchase and/or refund situation (debit is a cash purchase which is harder to reverse from a long distance like your home versus a credit based tranaction--your credit card). Also, before crossing the border, I now turn off the roaming feature on my mobile device. If there is an emergency I can still make a call if needed, but this alone saves hundreds of dollars for a weekend. I am sure other more experienced and/or smarter people have other ideas, those are some I have learned. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi Chris, I think others would tend to agree with me by saying that the answer to your question lies in how far you want to go with your technical ice climbing--which only you can answer. If you do not see yourself following/leading anything harder than say WI3/3+ or thereabouts, then a less precise fitting pair of crampons is adequate (though not excellent). But in general as one moves into WI4 and more difficult terrain then you will find you want the precise and secure fit of technical crampons--less vibration, less shifting of the crampon on the boot, full translation of kick energy into crampon points, etc. For me this means a toe and heel bail, sizing the crampon to exactly my boot, plus a few other minor features. Others may feel differently but that is my thought. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Hi Fellow Climbers, I have triples (there is a story in why three of something) of Sealskinz gloves and socks--both sets new--never worn. These items retail for $40.00 each. For several years I have worn Sealskinz as a base layer and find they live up to their marketing hype--they breath, insulate, and are waterproof--so dryer and warmer extremities when ice climbing--though nothing is perfect forever. I would like to get $25.00 per set. The gloves are a Men's large, and the socks are a Men's medium. If that sounds high make me a reasonable offer and we can see if we can do business. I also have an unlined pair of waterproof overgloves--slighly worn--perfect for wading though deep snow, etc., and saving your good climbing gloves from a trashing. I would like to get $20.00 for these. Would prefer to sell locally so the buyer can try things on to assure a good fit. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. 509-926-6766 or >loomis@rescue.com<

Hi Mark and "ColinB", Thanks to both of you for supplying information about the ice climbing in the Elkhorns to the greater ice climber community. Judging from the replies, when I combine driving time and approach time it looks like it wounld not make sense most of the time to go to the Elkhorns from Spokane. None-the-less it does look like it would make sense from someplace like Portland, etc. As an aside, the picture sure looked good. Cheers, and safe climbing, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Hi Mark, I was intrigued by your reference to the Elkhorn range in Oregon having technical ice as early as November (sorry if I am reading wrong and you are referring to alpine ice). I searched online for some further references and found nothing concrete. By freeway I am about 6-7 hours from Baker City on a good day, so in the winter, I might have to add an hour. I am in Spokane, so the same driving time investment gets me to some super good venues in Canada. None-the-less your reference is potentially interesting. I wonder if you might share for all our benefits some more specifics about the ice climbing in the Elkhorns. Perhaps it is all well knowm and I am the last to know, but perhaps others might be interested as well. I can see the folks in Portland, or even up around Seattle being interested. Things like approaches, technical grades, multi-pitch or single pitch, etc., would all be good information. I will understand if you prefer to keep all this a local secret, but would be very appreciative as to any specifics you might want to share. Cheers and Safe Climbing, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Dear Fellow Climbers, I have for sale a pair of Miura XS Grip rock shoes, size 43 (approx. 10 USA sizing standard). I have used them only a couple of times so they are virtually new--honestly. Due to a lead fall accident and surgery my left foot has a bit of a different shape than my right foot. So after a few pitches I realized the shoes are a bit too painful for my left foot--thus my sale reason. I have no foot fungus or "toenail rot," so no worries there. I would like to get $100.00 for them but would consider something lower if my back is against the wall (paid $140.00 exclusive of tax new). I would prefer to sell to someone who can actually inspect them and try them on (part friends that way). You can send me a PM on this site, or call me at 509-926-6766. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Hi SummitChaser, Thanks for correcting my English. My general impression is the ROS already have plenty of trails, including accessing the base of all the major outcrops, so creating new trails is likely not necessary. Again the general tenor of my comments was to make suggestions and trust in people's good judgment about how they might reduce the magnitude of their impact. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Dear Fellow Climbers, Last weekend I was up at the Rocks of Sharron/Tower Mountain/Big Rock/Krell Hill (ROS), south of Spokane. It was my first time up there since last fall. The grass was green and full. All the wild flowers were in full bloom--the shooting stars, the buttercups, etc. But I noticed some climber impact. This August will be the one year anniversary of the area coming into public hands and I anticipate there will be more climbers up there as well as other users. My hope is we can avoid having the ROS end up looking like Minnehaha. Minnihaha has many issues, most of which are not created by climbers. Examples include the graffiti. But climbers have over the decades contributed to the hard pack beneath many outcrops and the general denuding of the ground. So I wrtite to encourage you, my fellow climbers, to try to think about how to tread lightly. This could mean not creating new trails if avoidable, picking up trash if you see it, minimizing the use of a crash pad, etc. I trust in your good judgment to see what needs to be done or to be avoided, and to act accordingly for those to come. We have a great little gem in the ROS and I hope we can keep it that way for generations to come. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Dear Fellow Climbers, Today, Friday, 23 April, I found a small bit of gear at Minnihaha in Spokane. Tell me what I found and if accurate, we can work out the details to get it back to you. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington >loomis@rescue.com<

Hi Dane & Fellow Climbers, I would likely be a buyer (depending on the final look of the product, how it attaches to the harness, price, etc.). I have only had one instance where my BD plastic racking "biner" broke, and fortuately it was close to the ground so it was easy to pick up the spilled screws. But I was surprise at how easily the BD racking "biner" broke--not as robust a product as I had assumed. So the idea of something made of alumimum is an improvement. I support some of the comments made by others regarding method of harness attachment, etc. But here is something not commented on by others--I like the fact you used anodized alumimum (red in the picture). In one or two very limited low light situations (end of day, blizzard, etc.) I have reached down for a screw and had to focus and blink twice to see what I was reaching for. That is partly because my soft-shell pants are also black--so it is black on black. I admit this is a very minor and limited detail. But having a red (or other color) anodized racking biner might be a very slight advantage in low light situations, so I see that as a positive feature of what you are working on. That is my "two cents." Cheers and Safe Climbing, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA

Dear Fellow Climbers, I thought more about Jake's earlier post on this thread regarding leader falls. First, he was polite and kind in the phrasing of his invitation to share ideas about falls, and second, there might emerge from a discussion of leader falls some valuable information. So I thought I would give it a try. Here goes. 1. I exclude from this any short falls (ex., bouldering near the ground, sport lead falls--clipping when the last bolt below you is at your ankles, etc.). It is not that they are irrelevant falls, it is just that I think Jake is more interested in longer ones ("screamers). 2. I have taken over the years "screamers" on traditional rock leads, aid pitches, waterfall ice, and long friction bolt leads (old Toulumne Meadows, old Squamish Apron, etc.). About two dozen real ones on rock, a few on ice, a few on aid, and a few on run-out friction. The scariest were the aid and friction pitches. On aid there is so much flying around I always got a bit banged up (and scared thinking the "zippering" of gear would never stop), and on the run-out friction there was too much time to think about it and get burned on the slide down. The longest I have sustained was about 30 meters, down to say 4-5 meters. Aside from bruises and contusions, only two broken bones (simple, not compund factures), and some bad ankle sprains. Some were with helmets, most were not. No head injuries--thankfully. 3. The easiest falls (mentally) were the ones I did not see coming just because I was caught by surpise. The worst were the ones I anticipated by a few seconds. The anticipation meant that I tensed up and rather than falling like a "rag doll" I fell scared and tense meaning I banged up more. 4. The biggest safety innovation for me with respect to falling was the advent of the sit harness. The first to show up, at least in Spokane, was summer 1975--the Whillans sit harness designed by Don Whillans for Everest (crude by today's standards--heavy, no gear loops, no padding, etc). Prior to that my few leader falls were onto a bowline on a coil or swami belt which really hurt and if you hung a long time you could sufficate from a collapsed diaphram. So I was super grateful to get a sit harness to climb in. 5. My leader falls on waterfall ice, thankfully, were ones I did not see coming. I am enough of a coward that if I thought I was going to take a for-real leader fall on ice, I would likely really tense up (thinking of all the sharp stuff, broken ankles, etc.) and likely get hurt more. My for-real leader falls on ice all came when my tools ripped through rotten ice, not due to losing balance, etc. Thankfully other than cuts and bruises, I came out of those okay. 6. There is a school of thought which says to acclimate to real leader falls one should go out and intentionally take some. I am reluctant to tell others what to do, but personally I am not a big fan of that school of thought--at least when it comes to "screamers" (might be okay for little baby falls onto a bolt that is right close and you are in an overhang--but then why bother--not much acclimating to fear going on is such a limited situation). For sure, I would not advise this for technical ice, it is just too serious a situation. So in sum I think leading is not to be trivialized, and should be undertaked with an informed, clear mind. Each person has to decide for him/herself what is worth doing and what is not worth doing. Hope that helps. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, I am (I think) happy that my original posting engendered some conversation. Here are some observations: 1. The last item on my list in my original posting urged a flexible, adaptable mind-set, rather than an inflexible (rule-based) mind-set. So several responses describe my posting as a set of rules. Maybe I should have used a better word than "maxims" in my introduction, but my idea was to list things that seem to help, but for you to adapt to your situation as you deemed fit, rather than force something down someone's throat. 2. Jake invites me to describe some of my falls. But that is hard to do in any kind of concise way. I have taken leader falls on rock and ice, and survived them. Why did I fall on those occasions? Sometimes inattention, sometimes in over my head and not knowing it, once or twice a hold broke off, etc. There is no common denominator to my leader falls. Sorry to be so vague but that is the truth. 3. I agree with all of Dane's post (above)--leader falls on ice are serious matters and the ideas he offers are worth reading. 4. Over the years I have been critized by climbing partners for placing too much gear. One person, last winter said he would not climb with me because I put in too many ice screws, thus lessening his "fun" by having to stop and remove them (in fairness I do not think he was serious, just spewing words at the time). But it is true, when leading ice I tend to place a fair number of screws. So what is my point? I am trying to support Dane's point (Gadd's point, etc.) that a long leader fall on ice is likely to be a serious, bloody affair. My leader falls on ice have been at most a couple of body lengths and that was fine with me. 5. My comments about keeping your microlight on your person if possible were motivated by several rationale, only one of which was keeping the battery warm. So I concur, new battery technology has lessened if not eliminated the need to consider battery warmth, but quick access to the light in dim conditions, etc., are other reasons why a person might want his/her microlight on their person rather than in their pack. 6. One nice thing (among others) about this site, and climbing discussion forums in general is for people to share their wisdom. When I was a new climber (I am 55 now) Robbins' Basic Rockcraft had just come out but was not on the storeshelf--it was all (for me anyway) trial and error, rumor, informal mentoring, etc. So what is my point? All of you are fortunate to have Dane and others (not me--I never was and am not now on Dane's level) contributing their decades of experience to the discussion. The same is true on sites like SuperTopo, etc. My hope is discussions like this are rewarding and helpful--Lord knows I sure could have used something like this when getting into this wonderful thing we call "climbing." Cheers and safe climbing to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi Psychobikere, I have used BD carbon fiber tools for some years (the original Cobras, and the new Cobras) and like anyone, have various scratches, etc., to my tools. I am no expert (no engineer or materials professional), but from what I have been able to learn, if the scratches are cosmetic, then the tool's shaft is fine. But if the scratches run deep (ex., when you run your fingers over the scratches are you detecting scratches that are more like deep gouges), then unless repaired, the tool may be structurally suspect. I say "may be" because it would depend on the nature and extent of the gouges. Fortunately there are fiberglass repair kits (any marina or marine supply place will do) if you want to hold onto the tools and not retire them. If the scratches are cosmetic then perhaps wrap them in tape to prevent further scratching. I defer to others with more knowledge. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Congratulations Beau, I am proud of you. You have come a long way in a short amount of time as an ice climber. You are like a good wine--only going to get better with age (and experience). Keep it up, for sure, and get some better tools while you are at it :-) ! Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Dear Fellow Climbers, A week or so ago Alpine Monkey started a thread in this forum under the heading “is it worth dying for.” It has generated a lot of good discussion about perceptions of risk and managing that risk. It seemed logical to go the next step and share strategies, so the following is a list of things I do—a set of maxims I employ. Some are generic to all areas of climbing; some are specific to ice climbing; some apply only to long routes—pick and choose as you wish. I hope you find them helpful. Here goes: 1. Do not go climbing with a divided mind and half-hearted. Get in the car and go because you really want to go. Going climbing with less than a full commitment is a disservice to you and your partners. Many accidents in the mountains are tracable to the climber never wanting to be there in the first place. 2. Climb with an aware and focused mind. There will be time after the climb to think about why your girlfriend is leaving you, why your co-worker got a raise and you did not, etc. Many accidents in the mountains are tracable to the climber’s mind being elsewhere rather than the task—which is to climb the route as competently, safely, and effectively as possible. 3. When I go ice climbing I do not go climbing for the fun of it in the classic sense of the word “fun.” Of course it is fun, but ice climbing is dangerous. I adopt a professional’s mindset, like a neurosurgon might prior to doing a complicated brain surgery—there is nothing casual about it. If I am bouldering with some friends or top roping at a crag, that might be the time to be a bit more relaxed, but not ice climbing. So once I get to the route the horseplay and joking is gone. I focus on the task at hand. In preparation (getting on my harness, etc.) I do not do things that would distract my partner and I expect him/her to do the same with me—no idle chatter, etc. On the drive home is when it is time to joke, etc. 4. Prepare assidiously. Do not go into the field with dull tools, crampon bails that do not fit your boot, etc. You do not have to have the most expensive gear, but what you do have should be in good working order and you should know how to use it in the dark if need be. 5. Use simple systems. It might be great to be able to tie the latest triple overhand with a half twist backflip bowline knot you learned from some instructional DVD. But in the field there are only a few knots you need for 98% of all climbing—clove hitch, figure eight, prussik, and bowline. Extend that idea of simple systems to everything else you do. 6. Use the thinnest glove system you can safely get away with when climbing—it reduces hand fatigue associated with gripping your tool and reduces the fumble factor associated with handling carabiners, screws, tying knots, etc. Experiment with what will work that is thin. If it is that cold, carry something thicker on your harness and put those on over your climbing gloves at the belay. 7. Effective team and individual speed matters. Stand in the middle of the freeway long enough and you will get hit. Dart across the freeway and you might just live. Fast effective teams are safer simply because they spend less time exposing themselves to objective hazards, are less fatigued, etc. So how to gain speed. Here are some ideas. Anchors: this is not sport climbing where one is usually clipping off on pre-set bolts. Assuming decent ice the leader should be able to fire in two screws, pull a shoulder-length sling off his/her shoulder—clip, clip—half twist to one side of the sling, clip and tie in with a clove hitch in under two minutes flat. I have seen parties where the leader takes five minutes or longer to set up some elaborate set of anchors with everything nicely equalized. If the leader takes five minutes, it takes the second three minutes to break it down (eight minutes total). On a ten pitch day that is 80 minutes—that is huge!! That is the difference between descending in the dark, etc., and not. Worse I have seen people ice climb and take 15-20 minutes for the same task. They might get an “A” from their mountain school instructor in anchor building, but that kind of approach is dangerous in the mountains. If the leader gets set up in two minutes, the second can break in down in under one. Add it up. Of course there are exceptions, if the ice is really bad, etc. But if the ice is that bad an anchor with 10 screws might just be the climbing equivalent of “whistling in the dark.” If it is that bad then live with a less than bomber anchor and whoever leads the next pitch get in a screw right off the belay to reduce the forces. Also less time building and breaking down anchors means less time cooling off at the belay and getting cold. Keep moving means staying warm. 8. How to gain time. Leading ice is dangerous—the leader will want to take his/her time and get good sticks every time if possible, and move with patient care. But the team can gain time with the second. Unless the second is trying to get on the cover of Rock & Ice with some graceful shot—the motto of the second should be “go, Cat, go.” The second can get away with less than ideal sticks, longer reaches, some awkward stances, etc. If it is reasonably safe to do and will save time the second should do it—a fall for the second does not mean the same thing as it does for the leader. Practice speed on a TR so when you need to, you can turn on the afterburners. 9. The leader should get comfortable leading with a little play in the rope. It is frustrating, enervating, and potentially dangerous to always be bumping into the rope every time the leader makes a move up or has to fight the rope to get a clip. If the belay is too tight and the leader moves up, it can pull the leader off. I would much rather run the risk of falling a little bit further (and yes, I have taken several for-real leader falls on technical ice), than arriving at the belay fatigued and frustrated because I fought the rope the whole way up. Tight belays have their place sometimes, but usually not. Get mentally comfortable leading with a little play in the rope. 10. So long as you are moving and generating heat and it is not brutally cold, it is okay to eat snow periodically and take a little less water in polybottle form. I leaned this from something Messner wrote years ago. One of the 8,000 meter peaks he did in alpine style he and his partner carried no stove and only one water bottle, because they were continually moving, and they supplemented by sucking on ice bits and snow. I tried this one winter in the Waterton. I carried one water bottle and supplemented with snow all day long—worked fine—but I was moving so I was cranking the heat. 11. Carry your microlight (couple of ounces) in that little pouch on the inside of your softshell. You will be grateful later that you kept the battery warm rather than cold in that pack you wore all day. Also try hard not to carry a pack on the route. Squirrel things onto your person and harness, and ditch the pack. Just like in bike racing there are products (Patagonia pile vest, ex.) which feature a low back zip pouch—stick your bars, and other small items in there—easy to reach, kept warm, and might mean no pack, or maybe one pack for the team instead of two. A few years ago I climbed Polar Circus, and got by with the smallest Camelbak for my pack (sans bladder of course). I was fine and had margin. By the way, climb long enough and you will drop your pack at least once. If that happens on a long route it might mean having to bail. But if your essentials are on your person that is one less contingency to worry about. Forget about what you learned in Mountain School, you can safely climb with much less in the way of essentials than your instructors (who are usually not top-tier climbers) would have you believe. For sure there are times when you need to take everything and the kitchen sink, but take a cue from the greats—they pack and travel light—so can you. 12. Use a long rope—70 meters should be the norm for ice climbing, or longer. You can link pitches, might not need a second rappel rope, etc. It gets hard to hear each other that far apart, and all that snow tends to muffle sound, so agree on rope pull signals (two pulls means off belay, etc.) or use small two way radios—that is what my partners and I use. Cheap, light, batteries last several days—eliminates yelling and all the time spent repeating yourself, confused signals, etc. 13. It is hard to make accurate route and risk assessments at a distance. Unless it is perilous to do so, once there, get out of the car and really look around. If not sure bring some small field glasses or hike up to the route’s base. I find that I can only get a real picture of what I am getting into when I get close to the actual objective. 14. Practice being objective—really objective, not pseudo-objective so you look macho to yourself and your friends. When making assessments, start with the facts, then backfill with gut feel, intuition, guess-work, etc. Feelings should be part of the mental equation, but feeling come and go depending on how you slept last night, what you ate for breakfast, etc. So start with a clear-headed, unbiased assessment of the facts at or near the route for accuracy (temperatures on prior days, temperature right now, quality and condition of the ice, and a hundred other factors that have to be realistically evaluated to get a picture of what is really going on). 15. Be a principle-based (flexible) climber rather than a rule-based (inflexible) climber. If you see a faster, safe, and effective way to do something in the field, and it looks right, it probably is, so do it, even if it violates some “rule” you learned from some DVD or clinic. Great performers are highly imaginative, creative, flexible, and adaptable people. Standing around debating whether some rule applies to your situation and what to do about it, is a great way to get hit. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

Dear Fellow Climbers, Great discussion! Here is what I am working on--was I the one to make an unkind, ungracious, and disrespectful (macho sounding) comment to someone I do not even know (AM)? If I did, then like I said above, I owe AM an apology, and I want to make it--because it is not my style to publically shame someone, much less a stranger (might joke with a friend but that is way different). So AM here is what I look like. White male about 5' 10", about 170 lbs, give or take. That day (Saturday) my partner and I got to DP about 2:30 to 3:00 pm, give or take (I did not have my watch on). I was wearing all black--black softshell jacket with a red hood, black softshell Marmot pants, and my composite boots kind of have an ugly yellow look. Blue pack. My helmet is a blue BD Half Dome. My partner is several inches shorter and wears glasses. I do not wear glasses and am middle aged (55). If the man who spoke to you in the way you said fits that description, then it is likely me, and under my ethic, I made a big mistake. If it was me the above apology stands as well as the offer of a beer, and until that time, this is my electronic handshake. When we are talking about individual risk assessment, I think we can all agree, that goading or trying to shame another climber into putting his/her life on the line, should have no place among our ranks. Each climbs for his/her own reasons, and we respect another's right to decline to climb. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

Dear Fellow Climbers, I am genuinely glad for the mature and thoughtful tone of the discussion. Just a couple of things. Last night for the first time since last Saturday, I had a chance to talk to my partner (and had him read my post) to see if I had been accurate (there is always a bit of subjective interpretation person-by-person to the same event). He said I got the narrative right. It may not matter, but when discussing decision-making relative to risk, it helps if readers get the sense that something is largely accurate. When I started out my post by observing about the nature of the Internet, I most definitely did not mean to identify any person, I was just making a broad sociological observation. So I hope no offense was taken. I do not know who Craig is, but it would be out of character for me to atack someone in such a backhanded way. So to Craig I was simply making a broad observation about human behaviour as opposed to making a comment about a person and/or you. Since I focused on the topic of risk in my original post I, in the interest of brevity (I know my first post was detailed), did not discuss one item. In AM's original post he references some climbers making a comment about why was AM and his partner watching instead of climbing, and doing so in a macho tone of voice (taking at face value the accuracy of AM's recollection of events). When my partner and I arrived at DP there were two climbers watching, and it might be that one was AM, but I do not know. My recollection of my actions (my partner can speak for himself) was getting out of the truck, going over, shaking hands, having a brief pleasant chat and then I going back to our truck to get my gear. It would be very much out of character (for anyone who really knows me) for me to make such a backhanded swipe at another person, much less in a macho tone of voice (not sure I could do it if I tried). But as I sit here typing these words I cannot recall what I specifically said. So if pressed could I categorically deny making such a statement to the climbers my partner and I encountered at the parking area for DP (possibly AM)? No, my memory of what was said is not that good, but I sure as heck hope that no such words came out of my mouth. So to AM, if it was me and I said anything close to what you reported in the tone of voice you reported, you have my unreserved and abject apology. I will do better next time. And like I say if it was me and we ever meet again, allow me to buy you a beer and restate my apology to you face-to-face like any person of integrity would/should do. Cheers to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

Hi Paul, Thanks for the update. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

Dear Fellow Climbers, The topic of risk in climbing raised by AlpineMonkey (“AM”—no insult intended, just a keystroke saving abbreviation) is an important one, and since I was one of the people at the Devil’s Punchbowl (“DP”) last weekend, I thought it useful if I made a contribution to this forum. Part of me is reluctant to do so, but the risk seems worth it. The Internet is a great innovation, but sometimes the anonymity afforded a person (Usernames, etc.), emboldens a person to say things they would otherwise be reluctant to say in face-to-face conversation. So in contributing to this important topic I run the risk of being the target for fellow climbers who are not interested in thoughtful discussion. But on the other hand most climbers are interested in thoughtful discussion, especially about a topic which is at the core of what we love to do, so proceeding with a contribution seems worth it. I have and will continue to raise the level of my postings by signing off with my real name so I take ownership for my words. What AM brings up has been with us climbers since inception. It comes under different names—the physchology of risk, risk-management, risk perception, etc. Risk is at the core of climbing, especially at the higher levels. Whole books, biographies, autobiographies, CDs, lectures, journal articles, seminars, etc., all related to climbing have been generated about this topic. So far be it for me to make a contribution of that caliber. But what I can do is tell you what was going through my head on the day in question, and how I evaluated the risk, which might be informative to others. First, I am by nature a somewhat conservative climber. In fact most of my partners over the decades have told me in one way or another that I could be a substantially more accomplished climber if I were willing to take more risks. I think they are right. Putting aside issues like time commitment, level of athleticism, a big reason why I am not a more accomplished climber is I am not willing to expose myself to the objective hazards, long leader falls, etc., which are part of climbing at a higher level—I back off things frequently, I put in too many screws, etc. So an irony for me is that on one of the days mentioned by AM, I thought and believed that I was acting responsibly, and only undertaking a modest amount of risk. So what was my decision-making? AM mentions both Saturday and Sunday. I was at DP on Saturday (2 January) later in the afternoon. The two days were quite different. Sunday (in Spokane) was warm, somewhere in the range of 10 or more degrees warmer (Celcius) than Saturday. Due to that factor alone I would have judged DP too objectively dangerous a place to be. But on Saturday the daytime temperature reached around +2 C (I did not have a thermometer in the field, but that is about right). My partner and I spent most of the day a couple of kilometers to the south of DP, at Pee Wee’s Playground. The ice was stellar—steep, and most of it was blue. The entire time we were there it was quiet—no ice fell, no rockfall, etc. So after we finished at the playground, we were heading home to Spokane. On the spur of the moment we decided to get in one more pitch at DP. Earlier in the day we had dropped off two friends at DP. They wanted to climb there as they did not feel ready for the steeper stuff. Both of they seemed comfortable. One has climbed Denali and taken technical water ice classes, etc. The other one, in addition to be a climber for some years, teaches classes in risk management, rope management, building anchors, avalanche rescue, etc., and is a professional engineer. They elected not to join us at the playground, so we were picking them up at DP, but as I said we decided to get in one more pitch to close out the day. My comments do not include what they thought, evaluated, etc. I write only for myself. Evaluations and perceptions of risk involve the question of generalization versus particularization. Consider by analogy the risky task of driving a car. We all know that scores of people die daily from auto fatalities, and a host more a seriously injured. Daily the number is high for near misses (people not signalling when changing lanes on the freeway, etc.). No question, driving a car entails risk. If one generalizes the risk (every stretch of road is at all times in a dangerous condition) too much, one would never drive. So most people, consciously or unconsciously, particularize the risk (what is the risk at this moment for this stretch of road under these conditions—daylight, icy, etc.), and make driving decisions accordingly—and most live to talk about it later. I submit that we as climbers do the same thing, again, consciously or unconsciously—that is we particularize the risk (what is the risk today, on this route, under these conditions, with the equipment I have, the partner I have, the time I have, the route information I have, my conditioning, etc.) and try to use our best judgment, and again most of us live to talk about it later. So here is how I particularized the risk. I started with our experience at the playground—no issues, so extraploting just a couple of kilometers, it seemed likely there would be few issues. The preceding days seemed cold enough at night to keep the ice in good condition (incidentally the ice on route I led at DP that day was in excellent condition). Also I had climbed at DP before, including with some world class climbers (no hyperbole—I really mean world class), under much worse conditions with no issues. Like any location, climbing venue, mountain, etc., DP is not one entity. It is at least three separate venues, and the risk changes substantially depending on which of the three you happen to be at. There is the lower area where Trotsky’s Folly (TF) is located. There is the upper left side where Trotsky’s Revenge (TR) is located. Then there is the right side main amphitheater (MA). So by breaking DP down (particularizing it) I was able to get a closer approximation of the actual risk. TF looked loose and wet—detached from the rock—not a great choice. The MA also looked unattractive. I had climbed TR before—several times and knew that there were several ways up. The left side of TR puts one right underneath a large icecicle, but by hewing to the right side there are either no icecicles or small ones (that day while I was on it nothing fell from above on the right side of TR). TR and MA are divided by a rock escarpment which shields climbers from almost anything that might come from above, no matter how large. My partner and I hiked up to meet our friends and proceeded over to and under the rock escarpment. I led the right side of TR and set up a belay at the slings and descent rings at the large bush that sits atop the right side of TR. The large icecicle above the left side of TR then broke loose. Yes, it was big, but it fell where I anticipated, harmless off to the left side of TR. I did not get hit, other than a bit of a dusting from ice fragments in the air. My rope did not get hit. No person in our group got hit since the others were well off on the right side and sheltered by the rock escarpment. Evidence of the relative safety of the route choice and location of my belay is found in the good size growth and existence of the big bush which is used as the rappel point. If ice fell there on an annual basis I suspect that area would be scoured clean, much like an annual avalanche path is kept clean. But other than evidence of plenty of climbers standing around the large bush, it is very much alive, well, and large. Is this route choice, and belay and rappel location completely free of objective danger? No. But was this route choice for TR fairly free of objective danger at the time? In my estimation the answer is “yes.” Can I empirically back up that statement? No. In fact a critic of my choice would be free to point out what did fall off to the left, and what might have fallen during the time I was not there. My reply is that based on prior experience, on the spot field assessment based on breaking the risk down, rather than generalizing it to all of DP, etc., I, or any other observant and reasonably objective climber, could acertain a reasonably safe way to climb the route. I would offer as support the fact that no one in our group at the time received anything more than a dusting from ice crystals in the air (the two others earlier in the day had been in the MA and did report bits of ice falling). Would such an assessment of risk always work all the time? No. It was, and always is an informed judgment call. But AM does raise legitimate points. Change our location, route selection, level of experience, etc., and the risk could have risen dramatically. Others may have done exactly that at other times on the days in question. Also AM is right to observe how much experience and judgment (or lack thereof) was involved in the decisions of others. I cannot speak for others. All I can do is to try to give you a window into my thinking at the time. Knowing what I know now (that a large piece of ice was close to falling and did fall nearby—20/20 hindsight), would I have still done what I did? Well, honestly I do not know, but probably yes—I and my partner were climbing well, the route ice was good, it was a pretty day, and we were having fun on a reasonably safe route choice. What I and my partner did was safe given that we were untouched. But could the result have been different? Yes, it could have been. But to live in a world of what could happen to you, versus what is likely to happen to you, is for competent climbers two very different worlds. I try to live in the latter and not the former. Helen Keller is reported to have said something to the effect that life is either lived as a daring adventure or it is not lived at all. Her comments are not license to live stupidly, but they have value for climbers who seek adventure, challenge, and to raise their standards. There has been, is, and is likely to be continued debate in climbing about this topic. Seekers of safety tend to focus on sport climbing, bouldering, gym climbing, etc. Seekers of adventure are drawn to other aspects of climbing. Fortunately we have some freedom about this choice. There is another risk not raised by AM—the risk of living a banal life. If one drifts too much in the direction of risk avoidance, declining challenging situations, I submit that one runs the risk of living a less vibrant, less fulfilling, less rewarding life. Risk and reward are commensurate—the lives of all the greats that have gone before us, and not just in climbing—stand for this proposition. Many climbers today have not an inkling of what the likes of Walter Bonatti, Jeff Lowe, Barry Blanchard, Lionel Terray, Peter Croft, Bill Tilman, Eric Shipton, etc., did with integrity in climbing and the risks they took. But in my estimation they and others were and are the pathfinders who lit the way with their example. They have a torch to pass to our generation. I am not fit to walk in their shoes, but I can try to be their student and learn. Fortunately there are climbers of the current generation who have picked up the torch and are carrying it forward—Colin Haley, Sonnie Trotter, Steve House, Leo Houlding, Vince Anderson, etc. So in sum, was I on the day in question a wild reckless fool with his life? That is for you to judge. With as much objectivity as I can bring to the task of self-assessment, and with the wisdom of a middle-aged, seasoned climber, I am inclined to say “no.” I made a field assessment, added in my experience and judgement, and safely climbed a nice piece of ice unaffected by nearby risks, and in the process added to an already good day. Cheers and safe climbing to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA. >loomis@rescue.com<

Hi AlpineDave, Dane, and Others, Now it all comes back to me. Yes, I cannot remember the year, but around 2002, I was climbing Hyperspace with another guy. We got pretty high on the route and he took a fall and fairly badly sprained his ankle and bruised his heel bone. He had trouble putting weight on it, so we elected to bail (kind of a challenge due to the overhanging nature of the route near the top). So we rapped down to out packs. I offered to run out and get a rescue, and to his credit, he said no (the traditional climbing ethic is self rescue if possible). So I gave him a pain killer tablet, we tape up his ankle, got a stick for him to use as a crutch, and I double packed out. He was doing fine within a month of so of the fall. Yes, Dane is correct, in a situation like that I would and did care about my partner. Probably the relief of getting back to the parking lot with no further incidents led me to celebrate in the way I did, which can look like (to someone who does not know me) that I was just being a showoff and a jackass (which I try never to be). But I guess I was just happy my buddy and I were back down, and it seemed like a celebratory thing to do in the moment (that is accept the push up challenge)--oh well, alls well that ends well. To the technical issues posed by Doug Sheperd. I have had a chance to get in more swings with the 2010 Fusions. Some cold and brittle ice, and some soft and warm ice. My technical comments do not change or are otherwise dependent on ice temperature. But my earlier comments regarding steepness continue to be reaffirmed. This tool is really at its best on near vertical, vertical, or overhainging terrain. It could be good on alpine ice (but I have not used it in this way), but other tool choices would be better if one is planning to mostly climb moderate ice (say WI 3 and below). I did add BD Android Leashes to the tools, and really like the feel. They are great leashless or leashed, so I am glad I gave myself the choice. The thing to point out is that with a leash I did not notice a decrease or alteration in performance. Cheers and safe climbing to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Hi Chirp, Thanks, I think you are right. I look several times at the road in the background and it looks right for it to be the Snow Lakes Parking Lot. I still cannot place the time and people, but that is okay. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.