Bob Loomis

Hi AlpineDave, Wow, that is me alright, but for the life of me I cannot recall the time or location. The car in the background is my old Honda, but I have not had that for awhile, so just a guess, the photo is maybe 10+ years ago. My back sure felt better then. I have no idea about the location or who is taking the picture, maybe you can fill me in. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA.

Hi Dane, Thanks for your kind comments. One thing you are most definitely doing for the ice climbing community is advancing the technical discussion and encouraging people not to be afraid about modifiying the tools they get from manufacturers--which is often needed in order to overcome the design compromises made by the manufacturer. You have a technical background and shop, along with decades of experience on hard routes which gives you a lot of credibility--I applaud the discussions you are initiating and maintaining. Ever since I have known you, you have been a real student of climbing--which is admirable. Well, I guess I got shorted a bit with respect to grip handle inserts/shims, because truly all I got was one extra insert/shim per tool at time of purchase. I think you are right, go with the smallest grip within reason. I think you are right, the user will use less energy holding onto the tool and gain a little more control when swinging. I kind of thought about what you stated--how many grip inserts/shims can a climber safely add and still have enough thread to shaft to make using umbilicals with the tool a safe proposition (imagine someone's surprise at field testing that issue and coming out on the wrong end of the test!). I like your idea of using the upper grip on low angle ice. Intuitively it sounds correct, I will have to try it the next time I am out. But old age is creeping up on me as are the years of climbing--my upper back on the left side hurts almost daily--the result of a hard smack in a leader fall years ago, and some fingers in my left hand are a little weak due to tendon stains from decades ago. But I still do what I can with the body I am given. Also, you are right on in the pick comparison--I did notice a change--not with the same precision to be sure--but it is noticeable. Perhaps BD took years of criticsm about breakage, etc., and made some improvements this year. It would be interesting to run a survey this spring after the technical ice season comes to a close, concerning BD pick breakage. My guess is fewer climbers will report breakage this season if they are running the new (2009-2010 vintage) BD picks--but that is an unscientific guess on my part. I hope your comments and my reply help the greater climbing community, I always benefitted from those who went before me as well as my peers. Cheers and Merry Christmas to you and your family, Bob Loomis, Spokane, WA

Dear Fellow Climbers, After another day of climbing with the 2010 Fusion I have a few more comments. 1. Clearance--very good, if not excellent. For instance there were a few times when I reached around behind a pillar to get a good stick, and the tool's clearance made that maneuver so much easier. Reaching over bulges was likewise much easier as compared to the Cobra (my other tool). 2. Angle of Ice--this tool is not optimal if one is climbing lower angle (say 70 degrees or less) ice--it tends to bounce out of the ice unless the swing is finessed). On the other hand with a bit of practice (perfecting the swing) this tool comes into its own in vertical terrain--very solid stable sticks that come out easy. Thought I have not used the tool in this way I would imagine that the tool would be even better in overhanging mixed terrain. Versatility--with the hole in the head BD gives the user options, such as clipping or leashing to the head in a traditional mountaineering way (very unlikely use, but none-the-less an option)for traditional mountaineering uses. Also one could (for example) put BD Android leashes on this tool and thus adopt the tool for leashed or leashless technical use, something I am likely to do just to give myself the choice if I want it. I continue to find little in the way of criticism about this tool. A very good performer. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, On Saturday 12 December my partner and I climbed some around Banks Lake. In general the dry conditions and cold temperatures mean that many things have a good beginning but not enough moisture to fully form. But the Devil's Punchbowl was well formed, as were some things in PeeWee's Playground. This week snow is in the forecast, but rising temperatures as well. By next weekend some other things might come in. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, I recently had the chance to purchase and field test the new 2010 BD Fusions. The field testing included my partner trying the tools. We had between us four other pairs of tools. In some instances it was side by side testing (Fusion in one hand, brand X in the other hand), in other instances it was climbing a pitch with Fusions and then re-climbing the pitch with brand X tools. Here are my preliminary impressions: 1. Aesthetics—BD has produces a clean elegant tool, no useless “bells and whistles,” just a nice clean look to the tool. 2. Balance—the tool is very well balances—one its strong points for sure. 3. Swing—not the smooth swing of say a carpenter’s hammer, but more of a chopping motion—a bit of a change—more like dropping the tool with wrist action than swinging it. 4. Stability of Placement—very stable and secure placements—another strong point for the tool—no wobble--once placed in the ice the tool really conveys a sense of stability and security—not the sense that as one pulls up on the tool it is going to come out in your face. 5. Ease of Removal—possibly the best feature of the tool—my other tool is the BD Cobra—which can be a challenge to remove from a placement. The Fusion lifts out of its placement like a charm—virtually not effort. After a day of climbing with the tool it got stuck perhaps twice, whereas with the Cobra under same conditions the stuck tool phenomena would have been say 20-30 times—which means much less pumping out to deal with when using the Fusions. 6. Rust—since the head and bolt are made of stainless steel the rust progression will be slower, which should mean that swapping out broken, bent picks in the future should be slightly easier (less chance of a frozen rusted bolt to deal with). But stainless steel with rust, it just takes more time. 7. Value Proposition—with BD Cobras now some $50.00 per tool more expensive, the price for performance proposition for the consumer is very good—one gets a lot of tool for the money. 8. Pick--“T” Pick is standard, thus less chance of breakage. But this “T” pick is not the old BD “T” pick—it is cut smoother—not quite ready to climb on out of the box, but much less filing needed prior to first use. A nice improvement by BD. I do not necessarily think this tool is a “game changer” but it is a very good tool, and does legitimately advance the “state of the art.” Others have already commented on how BD took the criticisms leveled at the Petzel Nomic, and made improvements, so no need to restate those. I view this tool as a real challenge to the other manufacturers, and it will likely be a few years before they respond (field testing prototypes takes time, then the whole tool and dye process). My criticisms are few: 1. Top Stein Pull Teeth—I do virtually no mixed climbing, so these teeth mean almost nothing for me. If one is planning to only ice climb with these tools, the stein pull teeth did hold up removing the tool from its placement once or twice (tight pockets, between tight ice drips, etc). I plan to file these teeth down a bit—not remove them entirely, just make them a little less aggressive, especially up the pick’s length where they would be less useful in any case. 2. Grip inserts—the tool comes with one set of grip extension inserts, so for a pair of tools one gets two sets. The cost of these inserts is pennies, and so BD is being a little cheap by not including one more set for each tool. For climbers with big hands, or who climb in very cold conditions and will be wearing several glove layers, the grips will be too small even with all the inserts provided by BD. Other than these two criticisms I could not find anything else to comment on. I am sure that after a full season with the tools other points may come out. But in the meantime I hope these early observations help. Cheers and safe climbing to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, The other day while working out at the gym I chanced into a conversation with a guy. It turned out he was a Navy diver a decade or two ago, and stationed such that many of his dives were in the north Atlantic--a cold body of water. We got to talking about how he and his colleagues stayed warm in such a cold environment for extended periods of time. He shared with me an idea which I had not heard of before, but he said really worked. This is for the legs. It is: before putting on the neoprene suit the divers would put on a pair of women's pantyhose. He said the pantyhose did several things. One is it helps to hold a thin layer of air next to the skin, thus increasing warmth. Second it helped offset the clammy feeling associated with neoprene. A nice feature is the low cost, so that if the pantyhose become torn, one is only out a few dollars. Also very little weight and bulk, and of course, flexible. Also this material would tend to breath well, thus not trapping sweat. I have not tried the idea myself. But my initial reaction is this might be a good way to increase the temperature range of a pair of Scholler pants. He said they did not cut the feet out of the panytyhose as this helped again to keep feet warm with little increase in bulk or weight, thus not having to go up a boot size. The obvious downside is putting up with all the ribbing and joking from your climbing buddies if you wear these in the field. But sometimes you want a little more warmth but not the bulk and weight of a much heavier pant or pant layers. So just passing on the idea. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

SRCFC (Solid Rock Climbers for Christ) is sponsoring a waterfall ice climbers rendezvous on 27 February 2010 in Field, B.C., Canada. All are welcome—one need not be a member of SRCFC to participate. No guiding, clinics, or formal instruction is planned. For those coming from the west, participants will be having breakfast that morning in Golden at the Saw Mill restaurant (at the bottom of the hill heading to Field on the TransCanada Highway) at 6:00 am. Regardless of direction of travel the plan is to meet in Field around 9:00 am outside the Parks Canada warden/visitors center (immediate off the highway as one turns into Field), exchange greetings and friendship, and then head off to climb and have fun. An encouraging Word and friendship will be extended to all who attend, including at breakfast. Each participant is responsible for his/her costs of attending, transportation, clothing, gear, and climbing safety. Participants are encouraged to make a positive contribution to ice climbing and to Canada’s park system by such things as bringing a litter bag to gather up trash and tat, donating steel rings and fresh webbing for some of the older rappel stations, giving a Cliff Bar to a new climber you happen to meet, etc., each doing what best fits for him or her. For more information you can email Calvin at >info@srcfc.org< or Bob at >loomis@rescue.com<.

Dear Fellow Climbers, I am in the market for a pair of DMM Terminator Crampons and/or spare parts (front & back bales, front points, spacers, etc.). New or used (if still in decent shape). If you are willing to sell, let me know and we can make some arrangements. Pictures not required, but much appreciated. You can contact me via this forum or separately. My contact information is (509) 926-6766 or >loomis@rescue.com< . Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, Allow me to add a few comments based on first hand knowledge. A couple of things can be said about the contributions made by Dane Burns to this really interesting thread. One is he really does have an authentic perspective to offer. I can attest from first hand interactions and some climbing with him, that Dane Burns has been an active climber since the early 1970s and has remained so since then. Frequently during this decades long interval he was climbing stout and committing routes. Also, he has since that time been a person who does a fair amount of "homework" to back up his statements. One small case in point. There was a time in the 1970s when Dane had an apartment in Coeur d' Alene, Idaho. One routine day after some local cragging one or two of us were over at his apartment. I was a poor college student at the time and thought I was doing good to buy the monthly issue of Mountain Magazine (now defunct), and occasionally Off Belay Magazine, etc., in order to keep up. That evening at Dane's apartment, while sitting around "shooting the breeze," my jaw dropped at the "mountains" of climbing related magazines, journal articles, books, etc., which Dane had already amasssed--and intelligently read. He was and remains a real "student" of climbing. I raise these two points (long term involvement with climbing, and perchance for in-depth reading and research) with respect to Dane, not to force others to agree with him, but to offer to others, that he does bring a measure of sincerity, documentation, and authenticity to his comments. Cheers and safe climbing to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi Waterboy, I do not have an email address for the fellow. Two postings after my initial post to start this thread, Paul Detrick proved Jim's contact information and that is what I used. My guess is he may not be using the Internet to conduct his business. He is 82 and runs a small, solo operation. He may not see the need to have a webpage for his business, etc. But he answers his phone and is a good man all around. I think you will find him a good person to deal with and get your sharpening needs taken care of. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, I wanted to relate my experiences regarding getting some screws sharpened. I did finally make contact more than a week later (a week or so after my first email and call) with the fellow in Canmore listed in Will Gadd's site. He was reluctant to do the work on a mail order basis, and instead gave me instructions on how to do the work myself. He was very helpful and kind in this regard, and I was grateful. But my own work has not been great, so I wanted to go the professional route. I think the fellow in Canmore can have very good turn around time, so if a climber met with him in person that climber probably could get same day service or same weekend service. So I gave the guy (Jim) in Ephrata, Washington a try--great decision on my part. First, very friendly and knowledgeable. Second, very fast turn around. From when I sent the screws to him via UPS, to the time they were back in my hands it was five days. Third, very cost effective. Jim charged me $3.00 per screw, sales tax, and shipping, which was $4.00. Fourth, work quality--essentially the screws look like when I first bought them--sharp and they go into ice like a knife through hot butter. Fifth, he trusted me. He did not ask for (I offered) payment in advance, COD delivery, etc. He said he would send me the re-sharpened screws with his invoice and trusted that I would pay--which I have. There is only one downside to Jim, and he told me this himself and said to say so (with a chuckle), so I am safe in saying this--he is 82. He has been in the sharpening business most of his life, but he told me that though he has no immediate plans of getting out of the business, he is getting on, so when I told him of this forum, he told me to tell the rest of you that if you want him to do your work, he is happy to do it, but don't wait too long. I think that was his being somewhat "tongue in cheek" as he struck me over the phone as a true craftsman, intellectually active, who likes his work and will be at it yet awhile. We, ice climbers, are fortunate to have this service in our backyard. Good man and perhaps last of a dying breed--a gentleman, a homespun skilled craftsman who takes pride in his individual work, small businessman, unpretentious, etc. Cheers all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi Spiderman, After Dane's early and much appreciated comment about the fellow in Canmore, I went to Gadd's website, (it is under "Gear") and got the guy's contact information. I contacted him two days ago and as yet have not heard back. It is possible he is an active climber and away on a climb. It could also be that he does this part-time and so is not on top of people contacting his business as much as if he were operating an ongoing concern. So I suppose what I am saying is if you do make contact with him and set up a time to meet in Canmore, etc., it might be wise to really nail it down with the fellow. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Dane, Paul, and Layton, Thanks to all of you for the helpful information. I will probably contact the fellow in Ephrata first since his business is so close to Spokane, and you Paul, say he does good work on your screws. But I will also likely talk to the guy in Canmore just as a backup and for future reference. When screws were cheaper I would just retire them after awhile, but now, as expensive as they are, I am willing to try getting some more life out of mine by re-sharpening from a professional service. Again, my sincere appreciation to all of you with helping me. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, I am trying to track down a piece of information I recall hearing several years ago. I checked the back postings on this forum for several years and did not come across it, so perhaps the source was a verbal conversation. I recall being told/informed, etc., that there is a professional service that sharpens ice screws somewhere in the Columbia Basin area, possibly Ephrata, Washington. My recollection is an ice climber went to a local shop that sharpens chain saw chains, the local shop said it would give it a try--that is sharpen ice screws. My understanding is that the result was nothing short of fantastic and that now this local chain saw sharpening service does high quality and affordably priced professional ice screw sharpening on a mail order or drop off basis. Several of my screws are dulling up and my home efforts are not great. I have watched videos from sources such as BD on how to do it right, have tried, but my results are not great. So I am looking around for a good local professional service. Did I hear right--does such a local business exist in the Columbia Basin? If so, could someone provide me with the requisite contact information? I would be very grateful. If anyone has used the service in question, did the business do a good job? Any information is much appreciated. Cheers and safe climbing to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, I appreciate all of your comments thus far. Just some quick responses: 1. I can try to take some pictures of my harness and post the pictures if I can manage to pry our family digital camera away from my wife which I never seem to be able to do, and if I can figure out how to post a picture on this site (I am not very electronic technology savy). So no promises, but I will try. 2. I used to use the Trango ice clippers and liked them in many respects, but did lose a couple of screws during the time I used them--once on a rappel--hand drifted up and lifted the screw off the clipper, the other time while wading through deep snow--the snow lifted the screw off the clipper. 3. For the first time in my life I broke a BD Ice Clipper last winter, and it was not a particularly cold day. Here is my supposition as to what happened (I am not a materials engineer, so concede I could be wrong). Most plastics tend to degrade over time due to the oxidation process, and typically that means the plastic will tend to become prone to shattering over time. So in my case it was a BD Ice Clipper I had purchased several years ago. On rappel I "bumped" a rock on the way down--yes, just a bump, and the ice clipper broke--down went my screws. Fortunately they landed in a snow bank and I retreived them at the end of the rappel. I do not think someone should adopt my tech tip just on the remote chance their BD Ice Clipper will shatter in mid-pitch after several years of use. I shared my tech tip because it is a fast, simple, and efficient alternative I recognize this suggestion may not work for others, so if it sounds like a bad idea for you and how you climb, that is okay. One of the things I like about climbing is that, at least to some extent, there is individual self-expression in how we climb. Again, I wish all a great 2008-2009 season. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Ice Climbers, I want to pass on a small tech tip which I developed earlier this year. I have a friend who is a mechanical engineer who is also an ice climber. When I showed him my innovation, his response was very enthusiastic. He and I both think it of sufficient value, that is is worth passing on. Have any of you ever been "gripped out of your mind" while on lead? I sure have. I have often thought, when I am look at the fall to end all falls, that it would be nice to save some time and energy when it comes to placing screws. So my tech tip is a way to modify your harness so your screws rack efficiently and come off your harness with almost no energy and time--nice at the end of a long pitch when the lactic acid in your arms is building up and you want to get a screw in fast. In many homes people organize their brooms and other items with a handle, using wall mounted "grip clips." The common form is made of spring steel, in which one "snaps" the broom handle in and out of the clip when one is either hanging the broom up after use or pulling it down to use. It so happens that the typical home tool handle (ex., broom handle, etc.) is almost the dimensions of an ice screw. The typical hardware store sells a pack of four of the medium (3/4" to 1 and 1/4"--sorry to my Canadian friends, I purchased these at a US hardware store--maybe the US will catch up to the rest of the world some day and go all metric) spring steel grip clips for a couple of dollars. They are also sold in plastic, but the cold of ice climbing changes the properties of the plastic to make them more brittle--the spring steel's properties do not change in the cold and they stand up to abuse. Simply take your harness with these clips to a cobbler shop and for a couple of dollars they will rivet the clips to your harness. I had mine riveted to the padding portion of my harness, not the actual load bearing webbing portion of my harness. Have the cobble put a washer behind the rivet so it does not pull through the harness when tugged on. Now you are set to go. Clip the screw in, in the space immediately below the hanger where there are no threads. When you need a screw simple pull the screw off the clip (I grab by the handle--kind of like the old western gun fighter quick draw movies). Comes right off and no fine coordination skills required--nice when wearing bulky gloves, and since I pulled the screw off by its handle, in one motion from clip to threading initiation into the ice there is no hand changes or adjustments. Even though the screw comes off the clip easily with one hand movement it is very hard to knock off or out of the clip by accident and/or bouncing and/or hitting, etc. In sum, if you give it a try, you will find this to be a clean and efficient way to rack your screws, allows you to effortlessly pull a screw off your harness is no time, and yet securely positions and holds the screws when climbing. Lastly, it is cheap and adds virtually no weight to your harness. When cleaning the pitch, it is more of a hassle to put the screws on the clip, so when cleaning I just put the screws on a BD Ice Clipper--I have a couple of these on my ice harness as well. This tech tip is for leading--when the clock is ticking and the leader wants to get a screw in as efficiently and quickly as possible. I hope all who read this have a safe and fun ice climbing season for winter 2008-2009, and if this tech tip helps you to achieve your personal goals, then I am pleased. I have never see this technique used by anyone else, but in my experience, it is a very useful innovation. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear Fellow Climbers, I found a pair of rock shoes on Saturday 13 September at Minnehaha Rocks. Accurately describe them to me and we can figure out how I can return them to you. Email me at >loomis@rescue.com<. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi to John and all others, Most, if not all, of the comments preceding this posting, offered by Chad A, are ones I agree with. I had two motives for making my original posting. One was to make a positive contribution to the discussion. The other was to suggest to John as the initiator or this discussion thread that the data he solicited from others (hang time, etc.) might be influenced by whether the person used a leash or not, and whether the tool had a "pinky rest" or not. But those considerations are actually secondary since in the main the ability to perform a dead hang pull up on an ice tool and/or hang off the tool until failure are not central to performing well on technical ice--for all the reasons and more discussed by others. So just some thoughts on body weight in ice climbing. In a previous post John mentioned that a friend suggested to him losing some weight (some 10 to 15 lbs). But stepping back from that suggestion for just a minute it strikes me that the number may well be arbitrary for you John. It may well be that you are packing that much extra weight and could safely lose it. But it might also be the case that losing the weight will result in your struggling to maintain an unhealthy weight for yourself. From what little I know, the best place to start from is to go to a professional and have your body fat percentage (%) analyzed by such means as calipers, dunk tank, etc. Once the individual knows his/her % with fair confidence, then the individual can set realistic sustainable goals that do not compromise good health. Again from what I have read, for example, elite marathoners (Olympic caliber) carry body fat % of around 5 to 7%. Generally well conditioned elite athletes in other sports will tend to carry something more--9 to 14%. The exta fat can come in handy depending on what one is doing--or trying to do. For example, assume an elite boulderer (V12 and higher). What he/she needs (among other things) is a light frame, strong hands, and massive power in short bursts (mostly). So a body fat % of say 7% would make sense. But suppose one is doing big long alpine routes in Alaska where one has to have the ability to go for days on end in very cold conditions where one cannot hope to carry all the food one will need--one has to supplement off of one's body fat stores. In that situation carrying some extra weight is well worth it--especially if one has to shiver through several days of an unplanned bivouac with almost no food. I understand that one pound of body fat yields about 3500 to 3600 calories. Assume an average day of ice climbing in January--hiking in, hiking out with gear through sometimes deep snow, and say five pitches of technical ice. Add in staying warm by either climbing or belaying/standing around and constantly maintaining a low shivering. One could easily be burning 600 or more calories per hour (likely conservative). In other words on a short winter day one could readily burn a straight pound of fat. I find that I tend to eat and drink less when actually ice climbing. One is cold tends to suppress appetite. The other is the hassle of removing gloves, getting out the food and beverage, etc. Another is the desire to keep moving so I do not get colder than I have to--plus racing the short days. Lastly having to relieve oneself is a hassle (extra clothes, harness). So I tend to eat a good breakfast, go all day, then refuel at night. During the day of ice climbing I eat and drink but not as much as when rock climbing. So for me having a few extra pounds is fine. On one or two occassions I suffered through an unplanned bivouac and then the body fat was some insurance. So in closing I would suggest to John, go get a body fat analysis done by someone who is reputable--many colleges and universities have anatomy & physiology classes and they do these tests for the public for cheap since it is educational for the students. With this knowledge of your unique body, plan for a body fat range which allows for optimal performance without sacraficing health, and that is sustainable. Then consider the postings made by others--ice climbing performance is too complex to reduce to how many dead hang pullups can one do? Technical skills, mental skills, how well one uses the features on the ice, one's feet (crampons), and a host of other components go into the equation. One thing I like about this thread so far are the people and the content. I have not met any of the others, but all seem like good folks. Also the content is constructive and postive. It is my sincere hope that others who read this will receive my post as constructive and positive--I mean nothing other than to do so. Cheers and safe climbing to all others, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi John, You started an interesting thread. I do not have current data, but a couple of years ago I did a little testing at home that relates to your thread. The genesis for my home testing was whether going leashless had advantages in terms of duration of gripping (holding on to the tool) and/or pulling up on the tool. At first blush one might be inclined to say going leashless should result in a shorter duration of holding onto the tool since one is not getting any help from a leash. But I thought about how without a leash one might experience somewhat better blood flow into one's hands and thus perhaps the ability to hold on a bit longer and/or pull up on the tool would be the offsetting feature in the decision. So my home test involved a pull up bar and holding one tool in one hand leashless and the other hand holding the tool with a leash. The tools were BD and I removed the "pinky rest" from both tools (I had added the "pinky rests" as add-ons to the tools). The leash I used was the BD Android. I do not recall the times I recorded from several years ago. But I did find there was a noticeable advantage to using a leash if all one is doing is a dead hang from a given tool. The leash did not make a noticeable difference with respect to doing a pull up on the tool until I was near the end of my endurance--in other words the ability to squeeze out that last pull up. Then I added the "pinky rest" into the equation. The "pinky rest" on the leashed tool contributed very little, which made sense--the leash is the real "assistant" with respect to duration of dead hang and repetitions of pull ups. But on the leashless tool the "pinky rest" did make a difference. It's addition did not fully close the performance gap between the two tool configuations, but the "pinky rest" definitely helped. So my conclusion from my unscientific test was this. If one takes all other criteria out of the picture and only evaluates the decision of whether to go leashless on two things: a) duration of dead hang; and b) number of pull up repetitions performed; then using leashes is preferrable. But as we all know there are many other factors that go into the decision of whether to go leashless or not. I think one factor was the leash choice I used in my test. Some leashes (older generations mostly) really do cut into the wrist pretty quick--quickly offsetting any advantage they might otherwise give. But the BD Android does a pretty good job of distributing the load and is a bit more "ergononic" in its design. If BD asked for my opinion for an improvement I would tell BD to make the leashes side specific--that is one that is truly design for the left hand and one truly designed for the right hand. I have noticed that my right hand is "craddled" more effectively by the BD Android than the left. Another is the "cinch" feature on the BD Android--the left over strap after "cinching" dangles differently from left hand to right hand and thus tends to get in the way (snag on stuff) less often from one hand than to the other. Making the leashes left and right specific would add production expense and cost to the consumer, but would be an improvement. I know I did not directly give you the data you requested (because I did this test several winters ago and have forgotten), but I wanted to make a positive contribution to the discussion. I am 5' 10" and weight 165 lbs. Hope this posting helps the discussion along. Cheers to all, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Hi Spotly, I hope we are speaking of the same thing. The Iron Fingers Traverse and Roof I am thinking of is on an outcrop up the hill from the main area of Minnehaha, and the name of the outcrop is "White Rock." If that is the route you are thinking of I think I can be of help. Years ago before the route was freed I aided it twice. One time prior to the advent of camming devices, and the other shortly after their introduction in the late 1970s/early 1980s. The first time I used very small wired nuts and one or two copperheads to gain the actual traverse. The actual traverse involved a variety of hexes to get to the roof. At the roof I recall a couple of thin blades (the thin Bugaboo variety) to surmount the roof. The second time it was all the same except I used cams (the original rigid stem Friends) for the traverse. It seemed to me that the range was .5 inches to about 2.5 to 3 inches for the traverse, but my recollection could be faulty since it has been many years. I also recall the traverse proper being pretty straightforward nutting/camming with the majority of the placements very secure (C1 or so in today's rating terms). I remember the actual roof being the crux since the blades did not go in all the way--in retrospect a couple of RURPs would have been smarter. I hope I have been of assistance and I wish you good fortune as you progress in aid climbing. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, I am looking for a used, but in good condition, Wren Industries Soloist (product that relies on climber using a chest harness). If there is anyone out there with one to sell that fits the above description let me know. I can be reached at >loomis@rescue.com< or 1-509-926-6766. If you can send pictures that would be great. I am not requiring it, but if you have the owners manual to throw in that would be great too. Cheers, Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington

Dear All, I am selling one pair of BD Rage ice tools. They are in very good condition, if not excellent condition. They come with Android Leashes, but if someone just wants the tools sans the leashes I can sell them that way. They have the BD "pinky" rests and the Gravel trigger fingers attached, so you can use them leashless if you want. Climbing Magazine rated these the top "A" choice for 2002 (Issue #207). These would be a good choice for someone just getting into ice climbing who wants a solid, reliable tool, without spending too much. Will sell to the best offer. Call me at 1-509-926-6766 or email me at >loomis@rescue.com< Bob Loomis, Spokane, Washington