tvashtarkatena

Full disclosure is usually self applied. It's more accurate that way. Innernut tit for tat aside, we had a big storm two weeks ago - 15 F, 15 mph winds, 2 feet of snow deposition in 12 hours. I was climbing in those conditions for 3 hours in my puffy, and wallowing in knee deep snow to boot - aside from a little frost on the surface, the puffy was fine and toasty after all that. Last year I wore my puffy during the upper half of an ascent of Liberty Ridge on Rainier - sunny day, mid 20's F, 20 + mph winds. Perfect for puffies. By the time you're at the top of your pitch, you're ready for a little cool down during your belay. Any time its dipping down to around 20 (whether with wind chill or not) I'm thinking about climbing in a puffy. But it's not just about what to put on when you're going. It's about how to keep your body heat in the minute you stop, it's 25 F outside, and you're a little damp from sweating. If you go out at all much in the winter, that will be a nice, warm, light puffy. Finally...synthetics have not come up with a viable alternative to the weight to insulating power of down. Primaloft was invented in 1986 - and that's still the 'latest/greatest' in a syntho down front. Maybe they will someday, but so far...the difference is easily noticed when you go out in a NW winter and virtually everyone has a down puffy. Or go to the store and try on a good down puffy and a comparable weight syntho. That stark difference only gets worse in real conditions. And therein lies the rub. Synthetics just aren't gonna handle the lower temps for most people. And once you've got everything on and you're STILL cold...what happens next? You can get severely hypothermic in our winter conditions in well under half an hour. And THEN what happens next? Reading the blogosphere is fine, if you can wade through the sales pitches and typical innernut bluster, but its no substitute for actually going out in winter on a regular basis, observing what everyone's actually using, asking questions, and adopting things accordingly. Primaloft et al has its place in warmer, wetter conditions probably. But as a substitute for down in winter conditions? Um...no. Not even close. The latest, greatest synthos today have only half the insulation/weight of 800 fill down. That SUCKS! Since I carry several other layers than better handle those conditions (windshirt and softshell is mostly what's on when its above freezing and poopooing a bit), so far, a syntho puffy seems a bit bulky and redundant. Primaloft et al is also cheaper, but not when it comes to life cycle costs, because synthetics don't last nearly as long as down. Compressing syntho destroys it, so you get a jacket that's 50% less warm out of the box, then goes down hill from there. I've got a feathered friends volant jacket I just retired after 25 years of hard use. The down is still fine...the fabric's shot.

You'll be fine. Just fill some stuff sacks with snow and deadman them for tent stakes.

Well, you're going to be right as rain in that Sub Zero. More a full conditions deal there. It gets f'n cold on those volcanoes in the early morning.

The overwhelmingly majority of us in the NW prefer down over synhetic for a big layer, for obvious reasons of performance/weight for the conditions we mostly encounter here. Particularly in winter...I don't know anyone who doesn't go out without their puffy. Our winter temperatures vary a lot, but often hover between 10 and 40 in our mountains - ie, mainly in the temperature ranges ideal for down. We usually the usual under/softshell/windshell layering to supplement and handle the warmer conditions when a few of the right layers does ya fine. I suppose of you planned on doing a technical route in 37 degree rain a primaloft like layering system might be superior. Most of us choose our objectives/weather conditions otherwise, however, since our topography gives us a range of conditions to choose from on any given day. Don't get the Hunker Down. 660 fill is bulky, leaks feathers, and doesn't last. Spend the extra and get a MH Phantom or equivalent with hood - go 800 fill. That's a great outer layer for Cascade volcanoes (with other appropriate layering as needed).

What total bullshit. Down rocks. It's for below freezing mostly, yeah? 700+ fill (recommend 800) for longer life/lighter warmth. Event or equivalent is nice. FF for a full weather monster, Mt. Hardwear for value/weight, WM or Montbell for the purely weight conscious - little to no weathproofing. RAM and Millet make some good stuff, too. The hype about it getting wet is bullshit, too, Easy to avoid if you're a thinkin' man and use it when it's appropriate, like all through fall, winter, spring here. Primaloft's great if you don't mind freezing your nuts off during the 99 out of 100 times a down jacket would've been a more weight/warmth efficient choice. I just went on a winter trip during the big storm we had 2 weeks by with 7 other experienced guys. Did anyone whip out their primaloft when the shit came down? No.

I know, I know, we've heard already.

Dyneema? Ha! All this time!

Posted 2 pages ago, Keenwash.

I'll have to climb in OR over that weekend then, to amortize the long journey. Are fridays good in general?

Thank you for that Mr. Frieh. We're all very concerned for your delicate feelings. If you're concerned about being labeled a chest beater, there's a solution for that readily at hand. Now about the dyneema question...why not use it rather than cheap, weak tat? Is it not a good idea for some reason, other than who presented it, that is? Yeah, I'm talkin' to you, Nastia! Plunk soma that biowiz salary into some longevity!

Why, I would love to. Tue morning next week would work (or another fri/mon in the future)

Sorry, I just love "Stripes"

Lighten up, Keenwash.

Nailed it. Depends on the route, no? Even some hard and remote alpine routes get done often during good conditions. Obviously, your party comes first, but I just wanted to present a broader way of looking at things. In any case, why no comments on my main recommendation: using 5.5mm dyneema for v threads instead of cheap tat, which makes this whole discussion moot? Any thoughts on that idea?

Not sure what most of the above has to do with this chat...the bolded points have been covered already. Leaving v threads is faster on an open and down route, but that seems self evident.

Per Gene's suggestion, we might all ask ourselves that question right about now, eh Keenwash? I'm sure Dane can take care of himself against a little girl.

You were injured by a Candela? LOL Is there something wrong with being a girl? I'll have to chat with the GF about that.

6 mm cord's quite a bit stronger than 1/2" tubular, so I'd stick with that over the other, personally. Hey, I've rapped off of blades of grass, but, if given a choice... You can always spring for 5.5 dyneema and negate the issue. It's not THAT expensive, considering the potential consequences and total cost of such trips. Of course you inspect your anchors. I just like to think about those who might follow. They might be tired or in a hurry, bad weather, whatev. My bad on that.

Copy catting our pot legalization initiative Washington's own Alison Holcomb gets a shout out in this NYT article.

Fair enough, but it certainly didn't seem to be as 'popular' move among whatever motley group of locals do hang there, as your post seemed to suggest. In fact, the opposite reaction seems to be closer to reality. I don't live there, however...and that's kind of my point. I think 'do no harm' would have been the best call, as it often is in places where you are a visitor. Keeps the unintended consequences at bay.

So one handful of Argentinian climbers approved, and a town of locals that's only been there for 25 years doesn't count, apparently. Hey, maybe it was popular locally? These guys sure as hell never bothered to ask. Sound's like there was at least some local objection, however: "A mob of irate locals showed up at their cabin in the nearby town of El Chaltén, papering the windows with posters bearing slogans like "Out of El Chaltén" and "Jason and Hayden Go Home!" Garibotti is hardly a 'neutral' source on the topic.

That's a tired one, too, John. You haven't yet mentioned my TR count... Stay puffy, brah. I know you will. Now give me some eye contact.

Colony on the moon? Callista's already got the helmet!

BTW, a far more talented pair of climbers than you, John, also bailed off Ham and Eggs that very same day due to, oh, I don't know, 50 mph winds or something, but that's neither here nor there. The bottom line is that its a true douche maneuver to shit on another's TR here, or on any other climbing site. Argue the merits, if you're able, and save the resume for the interview.

Yeah, puff it up, John, you're good for that, but there's not a lot of actual response to the points I made. Somebody raps off your shoestring and dies and you're all good with it? Everything we do has consequences. There are no reported problems with ropes freezing in v threads that I could find. The larger rope seems to make all the difference. Not recommending it either way, but it seems worth a bit of trying out. Even a 5 time a year ice climber knows that actual experience with a technique usually trumps a chest beat without same.