hawkeye69

Kevin, you can hold to this mistaken idea all you want - again, there is nothing to learned from climbing the climb that would in any way alter any of the three facts about it I listed above. Again, it could a new Astroman and it would make no difference to my opposition of the route whatsoever. another hypocritical statement.... if you aint done it, you aint done it. but you sure have generated some spew about it now havent you? once again, it is unlawful to use powerdrills in the wilds. those sounds disappeared years ago. if you are bitchin about the style or ehtics of the ascent go yank that bolt on Prusik. stop being a hypocrit.

Exactly, I do know one of that crew and no bolt would have gone in on the line if there was any conceivable way of using pro. When they sink a bolt, whether on the Nose or on Prusik you can count on it being pro of absolute last resort on a mixed free trad pitch. As for it being drilled on rappel, I don't think anyone on earth to my knowledge has drilled on lead above 5.12. I suppose I should demand that of them, but I'll pass. They tried every single possible avenue of advancing on pro on that last pitch before resorting to a bolt. That's exactly how I trad climb: gear first and fixed pro as protection of absolute last resort. That is trad climbing - there is nothing whatsoever imperfect about my ethics. And if you're trying to contrast the traditional use of a couple of points of fixed pro in trad climbing on a route that definitely pushes limits of trad with a 22 pitch wholly-bolted sport route - and use the 'elitist' argument to boot - well, you way beyond misguided in your argument. There is nothing gray about either route, one is a stellar trad route with a final mixed pitch, the other is a 22 pitch red flag in the face of land managers of wilderness areas. The only 'imposing' that has gone on in this whole matter went down on Mt. Garfield with a drill in hand. i dont really care about IB one way or the other. i do think it was wrong to use a power drill if it were used in the wilderness. but none of you are bitchin about hearing a powerdrill in the wilderness. there are also some "unwriten" rules concerning rapp bolting in the mountains and i get that and understand the controversy generated by such tactics. mr. healyje, you support of some elite crew rapp bolting on prusik, then spewing all over the net about the "trad" ethic is HYPOCRITICAL in the extreme. it dont matter wheher it is one bolt, as soon as someone starts from the top, it is not TRAD. your agreement with such tactics do not represent trad climbing and appears to say, "hey, those guys are hardcore (whoever they are cuz i dont know ad dont care) and rapp bolting is acceptable. it either is rapp bolting or it aint. the line of ethics and style is very fine, dont find yourself tripping over it....

yes and there are some female climbers out there that i find pretty frustrating when they are cheating....

no doubt.

True. She does have some great free climbing skills. In fact I don't think she has ever used protection. look at the end result. you know she was frickin bold for that now dont ya?

but you are right, caldwell has set the bar high. problem these days is that there are many types of climbing so you almost need to specify (walls, free walls, tard, sport). note i use tard cuz i hate that word. yeah i know it ages me but i still hate it. those bavarian brothers that send on el cap are pretty freakin amazing as well.

sharma fails too. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=392855&msg=393155#msg393155 Dog Eat Dog is a measly 13+ put up by a scrawny ex brit on the choss of BCC....should be no big deal for a uberkinder

i used to use the merican death traiangle all the frickin time. show me all the accidents of TWO 3/8" bolts ripping aout because of all of the horrendous forces involved. i aint aware of to many. we did back in the day because we were cheap and hadnt had physics yet. rapping off one bolt when two are handy is stupid unless you only have just so much webbing....or you have absolute trust in that one bolt.

So it should stand....what, as a reminder of what can happen when greed for the summit becomes more important than respect for the mountain's natural defenses? Are you saying that once a mistake is made it shouldn't be corrected? Sounds like you have more respect for the bolt trail than for the mountain itself. no. it should only stand until someone climbs it with fair means (whatever that is) by not using the bolts. otherwise, the climbers are more hypocritical than ever. you ever clip a bolt pope?

no sheeeet, nothing like the MENSA of climbing forums, cc.com.

you also got to hand it to old messner. "courage in a rucksack" was a totally classic thing for him to think up. i always thought it came in a bottle... those poles, all they know is the "art of suffering". that hardly sounds like fun...

well, i suppose its always worthwhile to at least chat about the good ole days. and well, whoever plays army with me these days better have some patience. "shock and awe" is good and everything, but to win the war one must "stay the course".

army, the classic game. i lie down and you blow me to death. come on, i must be way to old for you if you aint heard that one

thats what i thought. but i doubt that that nun suit will get people to loose their attention. or at least male attention...

something like this i hope

uh yeah, just not the kind i wanna suckle...

ahh sheeesh, your not gonna make me explain that old joke. are you? besides, from the war zones to choose from well, playing around with muslim women leads to death. although, i have heard form some guys who have been there that because they are covered all the time, well, lets just say that a horny young male learns to appreciate pretty eyes over there...

ill play army with you...

CBS, even if we did have a scientific journal do you really think that climbers could agree on who was the BEST? in messners defense though (and I aint saying he is the greatest): 1st oxygenless everest with habeler 1st solo of 8000 meter 1st solo of everest (sans oxygen and no support) 1st to summit all 14 8000m peaks (this is a big deal) 1st alpine style ascent of 8000m (i think) some of the guys you refer to are a bit later than messner. and no offense, but each guy who climbs later has learned new limits by those who went before. my vote is for Beckey in North America though. another thing to consider: if climbers didnt spray about what they did, well, the mountains wouldnt tell us much. but messner was quite good at spiritual spraying, fer shure...

thanks for sharing, that was a great story!

if you are used to climbing a lot there are some theories about becoming addicted to adrenaline. my theory is that everyone that climbs and cant get out comes here to get all pissed off at someone. right now we are pissed off at you shavdog! yeah, it aint the same, kind of like comparing the right hand with your gf, but hey, it will have to do in a pinch....

granted, all those accomplishments are awesome. but is fred the only one alive still? that may be something worthy of consideration....

if that red tag is faded, go for it. just take your chances that it has been cleand and bolted all the way. i jumped on one that looked like ti was done and it was not red tagged. it wasnt cleaned worth sh&&. broke all kinds of loose sh&& off on me. scared me to death. then there were a couple bolts missing on the top. more fear to snack on. god i do love it when you dont die and your shorts are still clean at the top.

you guys apparently missed my sarcasm and earlier post. many people want to help others in need. thats great and as it should be. the problem i have is when climbers are singled out over wayward travellers, fishermen, hunters or lost hikers. IMO the climbers behaved more resposibly than the Kims did in southern Oregon but nobody called for rescue costs from Ms Kim. and i am glad they didnt.

obviously you are correct. blame the SAR folks. make them pay. doesnt matter some guy drove by THREE road signs indicating that the road was not maintained in the winter. took a wrong turn off that road, and kept going. doesnt matter that he had no clue where he was going nor bothered to tell anyone. doesnt matter that it took 4 days or so to figure out they were missing between San Fran and Portland. if SAR personnel are not smart enough to save all the idiots then they must be failures...