eldiente

Cool thanks. Yeah I'm looking at a route with unknown grades, it is possible that the follower might end up making a few free moves on the pitch and have to jug a long way to climbable terrain. Assuming jugging on the auto block, what's the process for switching back to free? I was thinking having the follower clip some pro to take the weight off the jugs while the leader takes in the slack. Workable?

I don't do a lot of aiding, I know some of you on here do the Dark Art. Perhaps you could help me out? Any ideas for the follower to aid around a crux section of a free climb while following? Assume no cracks so no French Free, follower gets to a hard section and can't make the moves, what's the best way to get them to up to the belay? I was thinking the follower could put Jugs on finish the pitch that way. My concern with this method is that the the follower is then jugging on the auto-lock belay, is this going to be a problem? I'd be a bit worried that jugging on the belay device might kink the hell out of the rope. Anyone got any good ideas how to switch over from following free to jugging? -Nate

The Master cam is a nice in the smaller sizes but I'd rather have BD in any size above .75 (Green BD) The stems on the larger Master Cams feel too soft, plus the #1 BD feels seems to never wear-out. -Nate

http://ignorantandonline.tumblr.com/

Good Lord that's a lot of ice! You'd climb there once and I suspect you'd never want to swing tools around the PNW ever again. Nice trip.

There was water up there two weeks ago, but it looked like mostly snow melt, If you can see any snow at all from the parking lot, I'd say you should be fine. If no snow, I don't think there would be any water. Hike-in, see image below. The blue dots are for the "sketchy" version as per the guidebook. It Involves a dirty 4th class traverse and a wet/lose 5th class pitch to gain the gully. Go up like you are going to Inti Wantana but head left before going up into the Inti gully. Edit. "Start" is for Pink Tornado, not Dogma. Dogma is up the gully climbers left another 20-30 minutes.

Oddly I had 3x climber friends all get their email account hijacked this past weekend and sent the same damn email. A trend?

Pink- No this was my first time climbing anything on Wilson.The question that comes to mind is; what's the best route to the summit of Mt Wilson? Resolution looks great but I hear rumors of choss rock. Inti Wanta looks cruiser but maybe just a monotonous clip up? Women of Mt dreams takes on the main wall, perhaps this is the best route on Mt Wilson? I'd like to try at least one of these routes at some point. -Nate

powderhound. The Sherwood Forest is cool as shit! I kept wishing we'd get benighted so we could stay up there for the night, build a fire and watch the City. I didn't see any evidence of bivy shelters but saw many good spots for a bivy. Firewood, running water, what more could you want?

Trip: Mt Wilson Red Rocks - Pink Tornado Left- Dogma (attempt) Date: 3/3/2011 Trip Report: This past week was an urban climbing trip to Vegas and LA. Every day included at least one stop at a strip mall and a drive on the freeway. Mostly a social trip with some good friends. Day-1: Sport wank sunny and steep wall Calico Basin Red Rocks Day-2: Attempt Dogma on Mt. Wilson, Pink Tornado Left actual. Day-3: Urban bouldering. Stoney Point LA county. Day-4: Urban Sport wank: Malibu Creek State Park. Mount Wilson: Pink Tornado Left: 5.9+ 1,000 feet. Looking through my journal this is my 11th trip to Red Rocks and I have yet to step foot on the summit of Mt Wilson. I really really really wanted to climb Mt Wilson, it is most obvious wall there and HUGE. Unfortunately most of my trips to RR have been in the Spring/Fall when the days are cold and short, not really good for such a big wall that goes into the shade at noon. No matter, I was stubborn on this one and talked Caleb into trying a route on Mt.Wilson despite the obvious snow cover. [img:center]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAAxlhyZ7I/AAAAAAAALi4/m7OPBo9uHbQ/s640/topo.jpg[/img] Pink Tornado follows blue dots to Sherwood Forrest, Dogma (5.11C) goes for another 1,500 feet up the headwall to the summit. There are several big (20+pitches) routes up Mt Wilson, we decided on Dogma as this routes has the least amount of moderate pitches and with bolted belays you can bail at any point. The plan was to take Pink Tornado up to the Sherwood Forest and join with Dogma for the head wall pitches. Unfortunately when we got to Sherwood the slabs were coved in ice and it was cold so we punted and rapped the lower 10 pitches of Dogma back to the gully. Pink Tornado Left is a fun outing on it's own, the views are great and I bet almost nobody goes back there, very much an alpine feel. (or maybe it was the snow drifts?) Added bonus, you can leave your shoes and pack at the base if you knew you weren't going to tag the summit. Beta here is good. Sorry not many pictures, camera died. A few notes. P1.5.9+ Some OW climbing on sandy rock, crux is pulling bulge from a chimney where the flakes end. Moving left from the flake across the chimney gap is whacky, jump across 5' gap onto 200' tall block to the left and OW up this thing to pedestal belay. Long pitch, rope drag. P2. 5.9 splitter hands, back-up awful belay bolts with #2 or #3. P3. 5.8 short pitch through roof OW. Face climb on jugs or climb OW P4. 5.8 long pitch, 190 feet. Obvious crack, wide at times but typical Red Rocks style face holds all over. P5. 5.7 Bus sized cave/chimney system, go LEFT of this on run-out but easy face climbing to pedestal. P6. 5.9 RAD. 240 feet (need 70 to reach anchors with a little simul) Go up endless flared crack mixed in with the usual face holds. P7. 5th class. Go up slabs and waterfalls to Sherwood Forest. Rap down lower Dogma. First rap is from a tree right in the middle of Sherwood Forest and goes down terrain that you could probably down climb. Raps are slow at first through bushy terrain. We had a 65M rope and were very short on one of the raps, had to re-rig the ropes and rap off a single bolt to get to the anchors. Even a 70M rope might leave you short. Bring tat for the anchors, some are old/worn. Thoughts on Dogma. We never actually climbed any part of Dogma, however we rapped the lower half of Dogma and the lower pitches look like shit. If I were doing it again, I'd still climb Pink Tornado to get access to the upper half of Dogma. The Horseshoe wall (upper Dogma) looks amazing, sort of like Black Velvet wall but steeper. [img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAAvnJ12aI/AAAAAAAALic/rkv1-pL_f5w/s640/P1020717.JPG[/img] The approach to Pink Tornado using the "sketchy" version as described by the guide book. Really awful here, 1' wide foot ledge that crumbles to the touch with 100' foot cliff under foot. Next time I'd use the "less sketchy" approach. [img:center]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAA10MWHzI/AAAAAAAALjg/Jxk0_3htvG4/s512/IMG_2862.jpg[/img] Sherwood Forest. Dogma goes up near the water streak behind my shoulder. How about some sunny climbing pictures? [img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAAqgE5HqI/AAAAAAAALhU/XCsd6pKq4dk/s512/P1020695.jpg[/img] Atman, Calico Basin Red Rocks. [img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAArgnFNKI/AAAAAAAALhk/MmfY1VLtltA/s512/P1020700.jpg[/img] Atman top-out. [img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAAu9PEV9I/AAAAAAAALiQ/__zT9681WDM/s512/P1020713.jpg[/img] Unknown 5.12. Sunny and Steep Wall. [img:center]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAAyd0nu1I/AAAAAAAALjA/XChQZaV0wYE/s720/Screen%20shot%202011-03-03%20at%2012.41.19%20PM.png[/img] Zach at Stoney Point, LA county. How the hell did the stone masters get so strong climbing on such shitty rock? Very soft sandstone with many drilled and chipped holds, some of the routes had no natural holds, only drilled pockets. [img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAAzEZP5zI/AAAAAAAALjE/tL6PR1HJC8A/s720/Screen%20shot%202011-03-03%20at%2012.43.34%20PM.png[/img] Caleb, Stoney Point [img:center]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAA0MXtPYI/AAAAAAAALjM/_94oH1j2AsQ/s512/Screen%20shot%202011-03-03%20at%2012.45.41%20PM.png[/img] Malibu Creek State park, unknown 5.10+ Rock feels a lot like limestone, very sharp and overhanging on pockets. Crux of this place is the approach, 5th class soloing over a flooded stream to get to the routes. One party fell in and had to be rescued by S&R via boat. Those Cali kids don't do so well with streams. [img:center]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_XNueStDVX8c/TXAA0ZKyPXI/AAAAAAAALjQ/TOoISux9_68/s512/Screen%20shot%202011-03-03%20at%2012.47.00%20PM.png[/img] Zach climbing "Delicious" 5.10D. Unlike most of the routes at Malibu this one is long, 14 bolts and overhanging the whole way on jug pockets. Gear Notes: Pink Tornado. We took singles to #4 with doubles of fingers. Many of the pitches have wide crack (face climb around them) so taking extra #2-#4 might not be a bad idea. Tat for the raps anchors on Dogma. Approach Notes: Pink Tornado. 2 hours from Old Oak Creek. First bit is easy, last part involves much gully bushwhacking. Shoot a picture from the highway the day before going in and read the guidebook closely.

GA... Finding good partners can be a tough one, however I have met and climbed with a few people from this site and it always works out.. What I would do... The next time you want to go climbing pick a mellow objective and post-up in the partners forum something like this: "Looking to get out this weekend, thinking somewhere sunny on the East Side. Can lead 5.9 sport, 5.8 trad but will gladly belay you on harder projects. Have car and rack, can leave Friday PM." No resume needed, once you tie in you can swap war stories and plan out some bigger trips. When you do these bigger trips, post a TR for us to enjoy. -Nate

Raindawg, you are aware that your hero Messner supports young kids rap bolting alpine peaks right? If Mesnner can change his mind, perhaps you can too? http://www.redbull.com.au/cs/Satellite/en_AU/Article/Amountaintoclimb-021242790000909

Went up on Saturday ( 2/19) Lots of deep fluffy snow down low, off the trail it was kneed to thigh deep. Unfortunately up high the wind had done some damage to the snow, sort of wind slab type of thing with a breakable crust. In the bottom of there would be nice powder, but on the main bowls it was survival skiing. Snow all the way to the Marble Mt TH, dry road. -Nate

I'm going to guess that most everyone in this thread that is bashing vegan diets is a fat ass. Prove me wrong, post up your height and weight. -Nate

hahah So funny.. My gear never works right and I'm too lazy/stupid to figure it out. Roofs and ice climbing?! That's messed up man, roofs are for pebble wrestlers. Taking skills learned while climbing on plastic to the outdoors is cheating.

Soo funny! I'd be scared to belay where that guy is. I once took a short fall on this route at the crux, the gear blew and I ended up right about where that guy is belaying from. -Nate

Has anyone been to MSH recently? Before this last storm came through, was it possible to ski back to the trailhead or was it dirt? I'm debating skiing up there this weekend, I'd like to think the new snow would soften the upper slopes, but I have concerns that the approach trail might be a few inches of new snow on top of dirt. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks! -Nate

I'm not for or against anything. I'm just saying folks need to recognize that this an unusual route, aid ladders aren't very common and to my knowledge this style of aid climbing fell out of popularity a long time ago. -Nate

I don't see the facts on the ground supporting your statement. Sorry to hammer on this, but all of the new routes going up at Smith or anywhere for that matter use bolts and pins for protection, not for steeping on. I challenge you to give me a list of modern routes going up at crags that use aid ladders to ascend blank rock. I like to think I'm good a good climber dork when it comes to cragging beta and I can't think of anywhere where new routes are going up using bolts for aid climbing. I like climbing trivia so if someone can list of some modern bolted aid routes, I'd like to hear it. This style of route would be out of ordinary at any crag. I would bet that 1,000s of new routes go up every year, how many of them have bolt ladders on them? Not many, or none(?) Not saying it is bad or good, but a quick glance through a guidebook would confirm this. Bottom line, cutting edge FA done in a style that most folks don't understand. Maybe a new trend is back? I'm going to step it up next year and drill a few pockets to create a moderate free route to the summit, I'm awful at aid so I need a few pockets. -Nate

As usual Joe is being made out to be the bad guy here, he isn't the most diplomatic (hey he is an engineer, he isn't supposed to have people skills) but he does have valid points that shouldn't be ignored. First, you guys (FA party/er mob) really really need to acknowledge that this sort of route is controversial and not act surprised when it pisses a few people off. It doesn't matter where you are at, bolt ladders are controversial, Index, Squamish, J-tree, Owens etc etc any type of new bolt ladder going in at any major crag is going to ruffle feathers. You should own up to it, a simple "Hey everyone we understand that that this style of route is considered taboo by just about everyone that has ever tied in. However we think in this case it was OK for XYZ reasons." That would satisfy me. A few things come to mind... 1.) Example, is this type of route normal anywhere? I'm digging hard into my collection of guide books and I'm just not seeing any kind of historical precedence for this type of route. I don't keep tabs on the aid climbing world, but have there been any new aid routes going up at crags that use bolt ladders? Yes monkey face comes to mind, however just about everyone agrees that the West Face bolt ladder was a bad idea and ugly as hell. (I'm going to get flamed for the bolted headwall on the Nose-El Cap and the bolt ladder on the Grand Wall, but I think a good argument can be made that those ladders provide links between the best rock on Earth) Seriously though, give me some modern examples of bolt ladders being installed at crags, where else is this going on? 2.) Aid climbers need something to do when it rains. Head over to Trout Creek some weekend, 100+ perfect cracks to climb, no hammer or bolts needed. I would bet that almost all of these cracks have never been aided so you'd be getting the first aid ascent. You think I'm kidding but honestly TC or the Lower Gorge at Smith would great places to aid. No kidding, the locals at Trout are way nicer than Beacon and everyone would be stoked as you could hang top ropes on all the hard stuff. Serious offer, I leave Saturday AM. 3.) Aid climbers need something to practice on. Worst reason ever to put up any route. Sort of reminds me of those jokers who bolted on on holds to the Cock boulder in Squmaish. Actually they use the same argument, we need somewhere to go and train when it rains and nobody will care because this is some small boulder. blah blah. Training? I highly recommend the hang board. I don't have a problem with bolts at Beacon, however access out there always seems sketchy and keeping a low profile is important. This route is hardly low profile, if I just read that TR correctly, someone fixed ropes out there for a multi-day ascent? Leaving fixed kit right in front of the parking lot hardly counts as low profile. Anyway, I know you guys (FA party) mean well but please don't dismiss people that have concerns about your route, even if Joe is cranky others share his feelings. -Nate

I just saw this thread but don't have the time to read all 20 pages, forgive me if I miss something. Ivan is a good guy and and contributes more to this site than most, note how he has 70+ TRs to his credit while most people on this site never post any useful beta. Clearly Ivan's stoked on climbing and gets out when most of us just stay in and watch TV. However all this hammering and drilling going on up at Beacon is whacy, if I just scanned these posts I'd think we are talking about a home improvement project, drills, ladders, bolts,pins, hammers etc. (Poor Ivan, he builds a new route and now he's getting flamed online, sorry dude) As best I can tell form the post/topo fixed gear was placed to help span blank sections of rock. If there isn't any features for clean aid why not 1.) find a variation around the blank rock 2.) free climb it or 3.) bail, clearly there isn't a line there if you need that many bolts to link up blank sections of rock. I saw some post about free climbing this route, has someone fully explored that option? Is there any possibility of someone free climbing around these bolt ladders? Seems like the first thing one would try to do is to come through on TR and try to free it before establishing an aid ladder. Vasty different styles, but it reminds me of the Pioneer Route at Smith, sure it allows a moderate passage over blank rock, but it is kind lame given that there is clean aid and free routes to the same summit. And on a practical level, Ivan how did you get permission from the Park to place that much hardware? I though there was some sort of permit required to drill there(?) Can someone please educate me? If the park is cool with 50+ bolts going in on one route, is the park going to be OK if I rap bolt some new routes on the South Side? I think I'd get lynched. *laughs* -Nate *update Ignore much of the stuff above, I got the story, thanks Bill. On a side note, whose going to give me a belay so I can free this?

I'll second (er third) what Dane said. You've got to be careful what you say when you're on the clock even if it is just CC.com. -Nate

This is complete spam, mods can this thread be killed and/or block this user?

I'm not great with the Patagonia climbing history, but it would seem that most of the routes down there are put up by visiting climbers so the local ethics are decided by tourists. I'd be curious what the residents of El Chalten have to say, is there an active community of climbers living there year round that has an opinion one way or the other? I ask because it seems like all this name calling is being done by people who don't live there and import whatever ethic they are used to and makes sense to them. Even Garibotti lives in Colorado. We look at historical precedence when thinking about ethics, on this wall historical precedence is a drill and a lot of bolts. So as awful as it sounds, Lama's style is not out of line for what is normal for that particular wall and is very common for big wall free climbing, even it offends just about everyone. (Side note, sort a waste of time. Seems like a really dumb place to establish a hard free climb, lots of hassle and everyone hates you and you get to set around in poor weather etc) Here's a thought. Suppose Lama "creates" a free route up this wall and needs say 50 bolts to do it. With a free route in place the Compressor route gets chopped. We went from 400+bolts to 50, would this be an improvement or still a tragedy? I don't think Lama will do it for a variety of reasons, (weather, too lazy etc) but if he establishes a free route and removes the bolt ladders, I'd say he has improved the condition of this wall and left it better than he found it. Lama clearly isn't making any friends with this nonsense, (although maybe Red Bull is making him rich) but that last bit in Colin's blog post about gym climbers was a little harsh. I hope he was trying to be funny. Many climbers that come from the gym go on to do great things. (Alex Honnald comes to mind)

I'm also a little bit tired of climbing companies and their sponsored athletes rattling on and on about how clean and pure they are. I'm glad there is a push to have less of an impact in the mountains, that's good but most of this is just marketing BS to make us fill better about buying their gear. The endless TRs that get spammed into my inbox read something like this. " We climbed light and fast in pure alpine style leaving no bolts behind." Nice, proud, but if they are going to spray about their environmental impact they ought to do it accurately. It would read. Our team burned 400 gallons of jet fuel to get here, we used gear that was made in China in a factory that doesn't meet Western environmental standards. Our gear is so light that it fell apart after one trip and had to be retired. Our ropes got cut on the descent and we carried them out and then tossed them in the trash." There's a guy you see around Portland who rides his bike to crag, not sure what his story is, maybe he can't afford a car. Anyway, this guy should be on the pages of a Patagonia catalog and in the mags, he is practicing a very low impact form of climbing and is way more "clean" than anyone flying down to Patagonia climbing in alpine style. Anyway..... Football game is starting now... brb