gotterdamerung

I think Lance is right here. Watch your 6 and promote alternate energy sources. The best way to shut these guys down is to develop them, get the fuck oughtta the Middle East, fortify ourselves with better counter-intelligence assets, professional airport screening, border guards, cogent foreign policy. In 10 years we could remove the middle east from any equation by removing our dependency on oil.

SOF=Special Operations Forces. Delta, SEALS, SF, USMC spec ops. The Middle East is a deeply divided region along religious lines which makes it difficult to find common ground. A good read is "The Age of Sacred Terror" by 2 former NSA brain types. Religion plays so deeply into the mindset here it is truly terrifying what we are facing.

Catbirdseat, This is the world that has existed outside of our borders for quite some time. Rawanda, Somalia, Sudan, Haiti, et al. My friends found the body and called Big Army to come over and take it down.

Your elected congressional leaders who represent you voted to fund and sustain the war based on intelligence that may or may not have existed. I for one did not believe in the case to go to war here, but I felt like it was a duty to represent my country here right or wrong. Peace through withdrawal and appeasement will hurt us badly. To quote George Clooney in "Oh Brother Where Art Though". "Damn, we're in a tight spot!"

Oly, I have heard it said before that Saddam understood how to control the various factions here. With 3 major religious groups, many tribal factions, ongoing terrorist pressure and influence, and many open questions regarding our exit strategy here it is hard to call. I do not envision large scale Big Army type operations, but a coordinated effort by intelligence and SOF to eradicate this country of it's terrorist influence. The Iraqi's will have to deal with lawlessness and things of that nature with their police forces and continue to develop their military to fortify their borders.

The Iraqi's seem to deeply respect strength through arms. Individual acts of kindness are simply that. An act of kindness towards a fellow human being. I believe that if Bush gets reelected there will be harsher responses regarding murders of soldiers and Americans. I also believe the military will step up operations to defeat insurgency. I don't like the idea of pulling out without setting the record straight. Having said that, I think we need a tougher strategy and an exit plan. I don't make policy, and I am only speculating. My opinions could be echoed amongst the halls of power however.

You haven't sprayed till you've been banned!

Mountain Man invited me over one time to kick his ass. I saw him come out of his apartment and decided that he was hardly worthy of my time or efforts. Home boy would have been smashed in two. I left without bothering to scare the little fella too badly.

No, if you are here you realize that the majority of Iraqi's are worth our efforts (as a nation, not many Westerners can stand them for very long on a personal level). I've covered this point of view before. I haven't seen you do a goddamned thing to help these people out. I regularly purchase things from Iraqi's that I don't need to help them out. Take the time out of my day to try to learn a few words of their language and show them I am interested in who they are. I also routinely wander around looking for those people who could use a little charity and give them some when I find them. I would have no problem killing insurgents and those who try to do harm to the coalition. I don't go out of my way to find trouble, that's not my job. I protect people here, and sometimes it's very boring. But boring can be good too. It means I'm doing my job.

I wish it were an option. Climb the walls around here...

On good authority Mr. Berg was detained because he had entered the country illegally and did not have a VISA. He was detained lawfully. M. Berg's death while tragic and unneccessary still needs to examined from the point of view that he was operating in a combat site as an independent w/o proper authorization. There are sometimes great risks to travelling in this country alone. I'm sure he knew that, chose to operate anyway, and became the victim of an unfortunate set of circumstances beyond his control other than to not be in Iraq period. If you come here you have to say to yourself that you may die here. It's a fact of this place and one not to be taken lightly. To sit back and pass judgement of his actions or the actions of the IP's who detained him is frivolous speculation and bears no further scrutiny. The guys who beheaded him should be your focus. The focus of your contempt and your anger. I would think the beheading of another American would rise public ire in such a way that you, the American people would be clamoring for harsh military retribution. Even the Iraq's are wondering why we aren't slamming the fist down. I'll tell you why. Politics and election year. If Bush gets back into office for 4 more years this place will feel the fury of 130,00 Americans kicking their ass when they deserve it.

If they can use brutal retaliation why can't we? Are they stronger than us?

So we 'torture' a few Iraqi's who you should know are pretty prone to homosexual behavior anyway (Girls are for babies, men are for pleasure), and THEY cut some guys head off for the camera. C'mon libs, show some more compassion for your favorite cause now. I'll show mine with a gun thanks. American Beheaded

First of all some of you need to realize one thing and one thing only. I am here and you are not. I have been immersed in this culture for quite some time and some of your answers simply annoy me with their high lofty morals and high ground garnered from somewhere so far in the rear you are 10,000 miles from where I'm at right now. Alasdair, I have an idea. Why don't you take your condenscending tone and shove it your ass. I have nothing else to say on this thread. Send me a PM if you have a problem with me. I'll be back in a week. See you then fuckers.

I referred to the perpetrators of the criminal acts using that specific verbiage. Try to read what I wrote without letting your emotions overcome you. Furthermore, having spent 7 years on active duty I would say that I am in a much better position to judge the readiness and overall professionalism of the reserve and National Guard component than you are. I spent time in the WARNAG as an infantrymen and also in 19th SF GRP (ABN) after leaving active duty so once again I have a perspective you don't. On top of that I have been in Iraq since July and have contact with all branches of service, both active duty and reserves on a daily basis. I would take the active duty folks on missions with me any day over reserves. As a matter of fact we insist on it. So before you go getting your panties in a bunch and making claims your ass can't back up step back and consider the source of the original information. Have a nice day. G

Compared to these ARABS our methods of 'torture' can hardly be defined as that. A few naked pics? Who fucking cares. Get a clue. Who's turn to be indignant? Back to the killing fields for me. Fuck the towelheads. We've apologized. Now let's get over it, and put the focus back on some of these assholes who are far worse. I don't feel bad for those Arabs in Abu Gharaib one tiny bit. They were probably setting IED's on the road trying to blow up little Johnny in his HMMV and now you're all up in arms about the same dude being stripped naked and having his genitals laughed at??? I do find it sick that soldiers could be so unprofessional and stupid, but they were reservists so what do you expect? They're civilian clowns in uniform. A year ago they were on the block smoking dope. Bleeding heart Americans better wake up. For all your violence in video games, love of violence in movies, WWF worshipping, tough talking, shit talking, posturing, you all seem pretty soft to me. Saudi Sadists "It initially started with punchings and kickings, and that progressed from beating me on the soles of my feet to being hung upside down in a position known as the chicken -- with your feet uppermost and your feet and backside exposed, readily available for beating,” says Sampson. “And between interrogation sessions, I was returned to the same cell and handcuffed to the door, so I couldn't sit down and I couldn't sleep.” He said that after being beating on the soles of his feet and chained to the door, he stood in agony: “There’s no way you can, I could even kneel down in that position, and so I'd be standing on my feet which were swollen, so badly swollen that they were actually exuding plasma through the skin.”

I believe this was after the fact that Shi'a radicals stormed the American embassy in Tehran and took 52 Americans hostage for over a year (444 days). The Whitehouse diplomatic approach to Iran's treatment of those 52 people could be characterized as "Fuck me? No fuck you". The great majority of Americans living during that time felt like Iran was simply getting what they had coming to them.

The Hughes 500D is the civilian version of the "Little Bird" heli which became well known from the movie "BlackHawk Down". I took this picture in January. This is a 500D: Little Bird over Baghdad

There are so many things going on with this issue it can make your head hurt. The bottom line is that in any penal system one of the most basic rules is that you do not carry a camera in a prison. Documenting anything going on inside a prison, let alone a military prison detaining suspected insurgents, criminals, and POW's is flat out stupid. Those soldiers were dead wrong, got caught and will be punished accordingly. The moral high ground has been breached and we are now looking at a greater level of violence here. No one is happy about these abuses, mainly because it makes the work here so much more difficult. We now have to work quickly to stop any abuses, and get back on track. The Department of Defense has done a great job, and while the Abu Gharaib situation is damaging we have to move past it and focus our attention on what we can do to bring the Iraq conflict to a honorable conclusion. It is not going to be a quick fix, and I would plan on seeing troops in Iraq for 2-3 years and US presence for a long time after.

I believe the play J_B was trying to make was the "Hindsight is 20/20 card". Combat is a brutal business, and when your life is on the line the instinct to stay alive is all consuming.

There have only been somewhere in the neighborhood of 250K troops in Iraq since the beginning of the conflict. I don't see recognizing the sacrifices of 1% of the general US population as pandering. It simply points out that the behavior of a few criminals should not reflect on the greater effort in progress.

Any updates here?

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. No matter how bitter your dissent may be.

Well Bush did, and now everyone is up in arms about it. A moderate republican with a strong military and diplomatic background, combined with reservations about use of force, based on high level intelligence isn't good enough for you? Who would you prefer? Clue us in.

I think that Powell's silence has spoken volumes. He is the one reason I was glad the Republicans had regained control. I feel alot of disdain for Bush due to the way he marginalized a man he isn't fit to be in the same room with. I think this country is just way overdue for good sound leadership. We have been forced into extremes on both sides over the past few presidencies. A alot of people hated Clinton and a lot of people hate Bush. Circumstances played into electing both parties and their agendas during their tenures. I for one would vote for a black man, or a yellow man, or a red man if they had the right heart and soul to back it. Lazy arrogant white people or black people that can't see past the color of a mans skin and see what's underneath are an anachronism best left where they belong. In the past and forgotten. I do get pretty weary of arguing with other people about the ins and outs of political posturing and scandals. It sure would be nice to have a vast majority of Americans in agreement, feeling safe in their homes, safe in travelling overseas, and getting past the troubles that currently encircle us on every side. The whole fabric of our society is being torn in two right now and I would not like to live through another time like the Vietnam era. Sound leadership with a majority of Americans in agreement is the only way we are going to get past this shit we are in right now.