high_on_rock

My 8 year old daughter Emily lost her climbing harness at the McLellan Rocks last week. If anyone finds it, you can either consider it free booty, or you can PM me and get it back to her. Size xs, says "Emily" on it. Eric

Thanks David for sharing your ethics with me. Seems that everyone I meet likes to share their ethics, and they all seem to differ from eachother. I think I will just stick with my ethics of "live and let live." Went out to McLellan today and enjoyed what I saw. Climbed a few routes, enjoyed the peace, swam after climbing. Great day. Thanks for the directions Arden Eric

OK, I have only been back in town for a short time, and have not yet adventured to the McLellan Rocks. Can anyone offer some directions? Are there shady routes for these hot days? Are there any good beginner/intermediate routes if I bring out some beginners? Eric Christianson

I kind of like the logic of what Steve is raising. What if we formed a local "Advisory Board" for the bolting of local routes. A way to determine what the local consensus is, if there is a consensus, in the local climbing community. Comprise the board of local climbers from all of the contingencies, and rethink some of the bolting practices. Give me a place to argue for bolting the Dihedral, give Steve a place to argue for rebolting the top of Minne, give Dane a place to argue for pulling bolts where he does not like them. Can anyone come up with a way to create a board that would fairly comprise all climbing mentalities and not just end up a bunch of folks from one camp trying to impose their will upon others? Just a thought. Eric Christianson

Anyone have any insight into the "season" at the bugaboos? Anyone know when the road clears of snow enough to get to the trailhead? Eric

I have a student in Spokane who wants to test old climbing harnesses to determine the degradation of the nylon over time. There are people who say to retire your harnesses after 3-5 years, and he wants to do a school science project testing the degradation of the harnesses. This is a request for anyone who wants to donate their old retired harnesses to a good cause, to please contact Eric Christianson at vikingclimber@gmail.com and we can arrange a donation. (Tax write-off??) Eric

probably time to get back to the old technology and learn to use a hand-drill anyhow. Thanks for all the effort and advice guys. Eric

Wow, thanks for the offer but Sunday does not work. There are a couple routes at Vantage that I want to place some top anchors on and clean the routes. We will be heading to Vantage on Tuesday and hope to do it then. If you are ever heading to Vantage with the drill I would love to try to meet you there and show you where I would love to see some holes. I do thank you for the offer of loaning though, just doesn't work this sunday. Eric

Sorry guys, Spokane area. My bad. Eric

does anyone know where I can rent a portable roto-hammer to hang a couple chains at the top of some routes. We have tried many of the A-Z rental type places with no luck. Anyone know of anywhere? Anyone want to rent their own drill? Eric

Sorry guys but I cannot find actual route beta for Infinite Bliss. I know it is in CC.Com somewhere, can anyone point me to it? My apologies in advance for being such an idiot. E

A high school in Spokane is selling Montrail shoes at discount over the internet. Check out their page at http://rivercitydiscountgear.com Buying from them supports their outdoor adventures.

He left them at the bottom of the climb, forgot to grab the rack before he headed down. Call him collect from "found tricams" and there will probably be a reward for you E

A buddy says that he left a bunch of tricams at the Tooth on July 17, if anyone finds them please contact 509-534-3966.

so, how does a person go about getting into BASE jumping? Obviously I would first need to grow bigger manhood, but if I could accomplish that, where would I get the info and gear? Advice?

Great post Dane. I would think that step one would be to bring out the otherside in a forum where they are not being attacked, and ask them what they would see as a compromise. The key is to promote open and honest discussion in a forum where all can discuss views and ideas without persecution. Perhaps it is too late, but it would seem the logical step. I would note from the latest threads that I have read that the otherside seems to have been driven underground. Perhaps the second step would be to clearly identify and state the issues, then we can see which ones are agreed to, which ones are close, and which ones remain contentious. The issues would seem to me to be 1. who decides when to bolt or not (possibly too vague of an issue); 2. bolting cracks; 3. retrobolting. Are there other issues that you want addressed? After the parties conduct open discussion and the issues are identified, step three may be trying to come up with possible compromises, or it may simply be to agree to disagree, yet come up with some plan for peace. To do this, both sides will have to show eachother tolerance, respect, and patience. Let’s argue ideas, not personalities. I would assume that both sides would also have to agree to a cease-fire in the chop/rebolt war. I personally do not know the parties on the bolting side, nor even how to make contact with them, but perhaps can enlist the help of Marty whom I have met. Marty, if you are out there, can you help me try to avert a war that will someday lead to chopped bolts on the dihedral? What do you say guys, stop fighting, call an end to the rhetoric, show eachother respect, and try to conduct a peaceful forum? All we risk is failure.

The venom being spewed from the traditionalist zealots is counterproductive to coming to an eventual understanding and agreement to the issue at hand. You talk about how “responsibly” Dane has acted, yet he has continued to belittle anyone who disagrees with him, and chopped bolts; how is that responsible behavior? How has that accomplished anything more than getting another set of holes drilled into the rock? Don’t accuse me of bias Kevin merely because I do not agree with you. My only agenda here is toward peace and understanding. I personally do not care about the rock at Dishman, and am beginning to agree with whomever suggested blowing the face off the rock and starting over. The rock currently has too many egos and too much pride attached, and therefore I view it as a nearly unhealable wound on the climbing community. My “bias” is not toward the “sporto’s”, as most of my friends are on the other side of the argument. My sole agenda is toward healing in the climbing community, which cannot begin until the John Waynes’ of the world quit seeking conquest and start seeking understanding and compromise. Both sides of this argument add value to the climbing community, yet one side continues to try to silence opposing views and opposing ethics (George Bush come to mind yet?) Nor does the fact that the vocal majority agrees with you make you right (religious right come to mind yet?). If you would approach them in more of an open fashion, you might find that some of those with whom you climb disagree with you; yes, we do climb in the same circle and they have told me this. Nor does being “right” solve the issue, until those who disagree or have differing views can be either educated or persuaded into compromise. Peace, brotherhood, understanding. Less war, more negotiation. EC

It seems that it is wrong, immoral, and downright blasphemy to have views contrary to Dane. Doesn’t anyone recognize the parallels between Dane’s holier-than-thou rhetoric and that of our illustrious president? People are not going to be bullied into accepting Dane’s self-righteous ethical stance, so if you want to avoid the “war”, it has to be done with education and conversation. The fact that 12 people from one side agreed on a “compromise,” does not make it a compromise. You were told long ago that if you chop, they will redrill, but then everyone is talking and none of you are listening. You can argue the chicken/egg dilemma of who’s fault it is, or you can act like the adult and just stop for a while. In the scope of the worlds problems, whether those bolts stay up for a period of time while this issue is discussed really only offends those whose egos are now tied into the battle. Cut the John Wayne, George Bush, Religious Right crap, quit measuring your dicks, and start talking. Quit bashing people who disagree with you, and you will probably find that there are more people with contrary views than you think. I often talk to people who like the bolts, even the bolts near the cracks, but do not want to throw their views into the public forum to be trashed by the traditionalist zealots. Perhaps before we chop and drill another set of holes, we could stop the playground bullying and try to start a conversation with the parties. Not just a conversation with the 12 people who agree with you, but with those who disagree. Perhaps listening to their views, rather than merely screaming your views louder. I do not condone the rebolting, and I certainly do not condone the chopping of someone else’s bolts. It seems to me that both are equally – equally - as guilty of acting on behalf of others, many of whom do not appoint you folks as their supreme leaders. How about we just stop acting and think. Think, talk, then act. Peace, not war; Understanding, not intolerance; Brotherhood, not subjugation. EC

It seems like George Bush has taught us well enough that when we try to forcefully impose our will on others, it never works. Rather than compromise or continue to work together, the majority tried to arrogantly impose their belief system upon those who see the world differently, and now we have bolts next to chopped bolts. What next, war? Killing? Or just everyone loses with the closing of the rock. Rather than merely dick measuring, perhaps we can try to understand the position and the values of the other side. Perhaps we can come to agreement before we act, no matter how self-righteous we feel in our supreme set of ethics. This is a rock folks, not religion. Peace, compromise, brotherhood folks. Talk not chop. Eric Christianson

It seems that everyone was invited other than the attorneys and risk management people. Perhaps we can truly preserve the place by getting everyone locked out. It seems that all of the preservationists have been invited, where are the sportclimbing groups? Is the feeling that we need more rules, restrictions; perhaps pay dues and user fees to fund parking and climbing cops? Get the city council involved so that they can mandate helmets. This is progress?

I have read nearly every word of this thread, and find both sides on equal footing. Both seem to believe that since they are “right”, they have the god given right to act as they see fit. The “old school” following the traditional way of thinking that the person who climbed it first basically owns the rights to determine how the route will be climbed forever. The “class of 2000” saying that things have changed, and it is time to let “progress” take place. No one is really listening to eachother, other than to refine their own arguments. For the record, most of the people I climb with adhere to the Old School philosophy. Many of the people posting against Marty are my friends and climbing buddies. I really don’t like Marty, but have gained some level of respect for him by his unapologetic effort to promote a new manner of thinking toward climbing. I have played on numerous routes that Marty has put in and have enjoyed the heck out of them. To my knowledge, Marty hangs the routes at his own expense and effort, and I fully appreciate what he does. Marty is a bright person who cares about climbing, and has made significant contributions to the climbing world. Marty also happens to be someone that many, including myself, consider to be an arrogant ass. Marty makes numerous great points that people seem to ignore. Don’t let your views of the messenger diminish the validity of the message. I don’t climb at Mini or Post Falls to risk my life, I climb there to have fun with friends in as safe a manner as I can and hopefully get a little exercise. I could care less who climbed the route first 30 years ago, or whether they did it on top rope, with a hemp rope, with used boots, in the rain, or whatever. I want to go out and have fun on the rock today, not dwell on how much fun someone else had. The fact that they climbed it 40 years ago primarily means that they are older than I am: not my fault. They had their experience, now let me have mine. I have no more right to interfere with their experience, than they have to interfere with mine. The fact that the person who climbed it first has “traditionally” been granted deference in determining the route, does not mean it is the right answer. Slavery was traditional, that did not mean it was a good thing. Wife beating was traditional. Nor does the fact that a poll has been taken showing that most agree with the tradition validate the view; slavery probably won in numerous polls for years, do we then never change? The answer is calm rational conversation. When the sticky rubber climbing shoes came out, it was declared by many to be an unfair advantage and thus bad form (cheating) to us them. Times have changed and we now all use them. When many early routes were put in, it was in boots with a hemp rope tied around the waist; times have changed. Spokane once allowed such dangerous activities as rollerskating without a helmet; times change. Rumor is that in the olden days it was legal to swim in the river without a life preserver. For good or bad, traditions change. There have been a lot of changes to make climbing safer; does that mean that we are all punks now for refusing to face death boldly like those before us? I personally don’t want to face death or personal injury most of the time when I climb; I climb for the exercise and social aspect; not to defy death. If you want to climb run-out routes, skip a few of the bolts; why make me do it too? There are numerous routes that I think would be better with a couple more bolts. (please save all of your “need bigger balls” comments for other testosterone driven fools.) According to the old school, we must all forever climb the way some old guy did 30 years ago. What gives you the right to decide for me? If some putz bolts a crack, you are free to place gear and ignore the bolts. I would never bolt a crack, nor propose it be done, but what right do I have to impose my beliefs on other climbers? If you think that Marty and his buds are overbolting, simply boycott the bolts and ignore them. Then you can climb your way and I can climb my way, and they can climb their way. I love to climb at Mini because that is where many of my friends climb. I have to admit though that I am tired of walking around to hang a top rope, then walk back around after pulling the route. I would love to see Marty hang some chains at the top of many of the routes (hell, he can hang chains at the top of all of the routes if he wants, that way I can rap down and quit having to walk around). If someone wants to walk around that is fine by me, but why force me to do it your way. Bolt a few of those faces, I will clip the bolts and you can ignore them. The problem is that we have people on both sides that believe that they have the god given right to act for all of us. Pretentious jerks who bolt what they want when they want, to hell with everyone else. Pretentious jerks who go out and chop bolts, making the decision for all of us. Neither are ethically better than the other. How is chopping a bolt any less defacing to the rock than placing the bolt in the first place? It irritates me to climb a couple of the routes at Vantage where someone chopped the bolts, then new bolts were placed mere inches away from the old. What was accomplished? I could easily ignore the bolts, but the chopped stubs cannot be ignored. If I wanted, I could have skipped the bolts and walked around and hung a top rope, then walked around again after climbing; personally, I enjoyed the bolts and appreciate whoever hung them. (It is my belief that the person who chopped them later admitted it was wrong and wished he had not done it; I could be wrong though, as I claim no expertise in the matter.) One of my favorite climbs anywhere is the Monkey Face Pioneer route at Smith. At some point someone decided to put in a bolt ladder so that fat old asses like mine can climb it. Is that really any different than someone placing a plastic hold on the wall at dishman? I love the monkey face and sincerely appreciate whoever placed all of the aid on the wall, as it has provided me and many others a lot of pleasure. Should only people who can climb the 5.15 pitch get to enjoy the climb? There is a three pitch at Metaline Falls that has a move that is too tough for me, so I always hung a runner so I could cheat past it. I took a lot of people on a tremendous climb, giving them an experience they will always remember, cheating every time. I also enjoyed it every time. Perhaps I was not facing death enough to satisfy some, but that was not my reason for being there. Don’t misunderstand my position: I personally would be embarrassed to have hung a plastic hold in the middle of the face at dishman, but in reality it is no different than placing an aid ladder on Monkey Face. As long as I am willing to pull on the aid bolts and pull on a quick draw now and then, I have completely lost any right to complain about someone pulling on a plastic hold. While I would never drill a finger pocket to cheat my way up a rock that I cannot climb, there is no real difference from drilling holes in the rock to hang aid bolts. From my perspective, anyone who has pulled their way up the Pioneer route has lost the ethical higher ground from which to look down their noses at Marty for drilling finger pockets. Both are using holes drilled in the rock to climb rock that they are not skilled enough to climb. Merely my opinion. I have also been on easier routes, and bypassed bolts that I either did not think were necessary or just did not feel like using for one reason or another. I did not cuss the person who placed the bolt, nor did I threaten to pull the bolt. I merely climbed past it and enjoyed the day. If I am in the mood to face death then I climb unroped (as I often do) bypassing bolts and great gear placements. Does that mean that everyone should have to climb it that way? I enjoy placing gear, I enjoy clipping bolts, I enjoy climbing unroped. I often cheat on routes by hanging, pulling on draws, or using other aid techniques. How about letting me decide how I want to climb each route, and you decide how you want to climb the route. It seems simple. Whatever anyone can do to make climbing safer for others, they have my support. Whatever we can do to make the fringe groups come more toward the center, I am for that too. Rather than one fringe bolting everything and another fringe destroying the rock by chopping the bolts; I suggest calm rational conversation toward other solutions. Rather than “I will do it my way and you can go to hell,” perhaps we can quit pissing at eachother long enough to actually listen and enter calm rational discussion. Rather than Dane or his crew making all of the decisions, rather than Marty or his crew making all of the decisions, perhaps we should gather representative members of the local climbing community and discuss ways of bringing the factions together toward compromise; include (merely out of respect) the person who had the first accent; include members from the Old School; include members of The Class of 2000, and include others who climb at the area. Perhaps we could come to some compromises and agreements thus reducing the amount of pissing on each other, and reduce the number of chopped bolts desecrating the rock. Education, understanding, and brotherhood. Instead of invading countries to impose our flawed ethical views on others, … (oops, wrong subject.) Tolerance for others, and openness to discussing new ideas is the key to living in a society. Marty, I appreciate the routes you have put up, and I appreciate all that you do for the climbing community. I fully appreciate the fact that you have stood unapologetically through the derogatory posts blaming you for every evil done to rock; and continued to try to make some very valid points. I will never invite you into my home, but if I bought a rock I would surely invite you to bring your bolt-gun over and invest as much of your own time and money as you see fit, and send you home with a large and sincere “thank you.” If you want to develop a couple rocks around Cle Elum, let me know and I will show you where they are at; I can tell you that the local high school students would fully appreciate your time and effort. Peace and Brotherhood! EC

I am a cle Elum climber with some info, but I cannot understand the thread as to where you guys have been climbing. More info, and maybe I can give you some beta

Anyone have any strong feelings about using a Petzl Tibloc pushing a prussic up the rope?

Good question Toast, when you come up with a final answer why don't you post it as a final to this thread, from which the rest of us may learn.

I take it as even more of an affront that pinhead was ripped off while he was helping someone else. While giving of himself, someone steals from him. Is there no god? Good luck Steve, let me know if you want to borrow any of my old crap gear until you can get it replaced. Eric C