Dane

That is laughable. When you gain the maturity to be called "old timer" and have faced the reality of your own death dozens of times you might realise that dying climbing is no different that being run over by a bus, being shot in the head or a long lingering death by cancer. You think it is only climbers that have to over come their own fears (of death) to accomplish their goals? I'd venture that most of a climbers fears are unrealistic incomparison to a few other activities...as LE/military/firefighter come to mind off hand. Few rational people get to choose how they'll die. Damn few climbers ever died "doing what they love". Dirt dives, sleeping on ice blankets and banging your head against a rock not withstanding. Generally we (climbers) die from really stupid mistakes. And no one, including the DEAD climber is happy about it. What you miss is everyone fears death. How/why you fear death has nothing to do with climbing. We all know death is coming, only difference for each of us is how much pain we'll go through before its done.

Fook me running, please let me explain! Dying...we all do it at some point or being cold or alone? Everyone will experience all three at some time in their life. Way more people die of exposure (inside and outside) every winter than climbers ever have. Pretty basic human feelings (fear of death, being cold or being alone)) shared by most everyone to one degree or another.

Most who have been involved in climbing for any length of time have lost a partner, loved one or known someone in the community that has. It is never easy. It is a part of climbing. My heart goes out to anyone in that circumstance. It is not easy. The debate on Hood over climber registration, SAR and how the mountain might be better managed is a worthy topic we should all be involved in when it is appropriate for you. The Oregonian's recent "stump" cartoon under discussion flames the fire of the debate just as it was intended and should. It is no better or worse than the editorial cartoons that run almost daily in one paper or another world wide denouncing the US lead wars in Iraq or Afganistan and using the dead in each instance to make the point. It is a normal human response. When people die with no easily understood reasoning those left alive want to identify the problem and keep it from happening again. That response is as old as human history, "go no further...monsters lay beyond". Viewed by the non-climbing public..climbers walk from safety, willingly into the land of monsters. They don't understand why we would or the dangers that obviously live there. The non-climbing public sees and does understand the fear of dying, cold and alone. It shouldn't take much for us as a community to understand why the incidents on Hood draw such attention from the rest of the population.

My hill before it was your hill Exactly...it all depends on your point of view. My thought is we as climbers really ought to be happy that their is a debate and that we get to be a part of it. By the look of it the climbing community (SAR included) can defeat that atitude....if you get involved past the Internet forums.

I sure as hell fail to see the humor of people dying and bodies being lost on a pile of shit like Hood. The (editiorial) cartoon I find biting with sarcasm and gallows humor. Appropriate for the context and climbing in general imo. Like any letter to the editor is is simply another man's opinion. In this case a very well illustrated opinion or as Joe implied so succintly, you wouldn't have your panties in a bunch. I know it is hard for some of you....media bashing and all...you'd think this was a forum for the NRA! Ya freak'in wankers.....grab the clue bus as it goes by will ya?

And I thought it hilarious

All it takes in money....just the one hammer/pick this time, sorry

I have one of these for sale. Almost new Astro pick with a cut down and welded on Quark hammer. Bolts right on for a limited amount of pin pounding. $100. Pay Pal works.

BD loves us So no worries there. Dry tooling and really hard steels aren't all that compatible as you've obviously noticed. I think you'll find our version more akin to a "sticky aermet" in comparison to the original BD picks. Our tooth and pick design is also slightly different.

My other favorite among many..BG&E in simply amazing conditions. Climb should have a totally different name when it is like that...maybe just "Beyond.. Good"! http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=291

Two more good videos of awesome climbs for ideas on tool placements and use. http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=1110 Tool stacks @ 8:00 and on by the old school dude in the gaiters and his buddy while they are on the ribbon are great http://www.tvmountain.com/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=117&video_id=272

I believe he is in NC.

what size street shoe do you wear?

Saw your other posts on rc.com...good decision.

He is using older Quarks with attachment holes on the shaft in different places....slighty lower than the newest tools so you can get the required bigger loops. A sewn loop (sewn while on the tool) and taped on the inside is used and works great just as you saw and described. I found for steep water ice it wasn't a very useful tool. But for steep (70/80 or less) alpine ice it would be awesome. Chamonix boys so they see a lot of that kind of terrain. A bolted high grip pretty much duplicates the ability to do it all except hang a pick in the loop to avoid a tool stack. In high dagger where these tools excel on moderte alpine terrain I suspect the loop was manly used to avoid dropping the tool while leashless. Umbilicals eliminate that need as well. I decided to stick with the umbilicals long term. The trigger he has added will do a real number on your index finger in cold weather...like tear a tendon off. Never a good idea to go full weight on the index finger which he is doing a lot. Remember this is a early video with Quarks (2003), the original tools (2000), and not using any of the Petzl factory bolted on grip supports and before umbilicals became common place. Stuff he is using are all Grivel parts modified to work on the Quark. But I'd like to be as cool as those guys obviously are! Awesome video isn't it? More here: http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP06/climbing-note-constant

Pardon me if I take Gene's comment seriously. Not sure he meant it that way. For technical climbing on ice at any level past WI3 the reverse curved blades and radically curved shafts are much more secure and easier to place and remove. Straight shafted tools have gone the way of the dinosaur for anything remotely technical on ice. The Viper/Cobra comparison is fair for price point but not for performance. Most of the points have already been addressed. But lets start by clarifying they are not identical...not even close tecnically. Head angle, shaft material, handle angle grip size and position are all intentionally different to offer a slightly less technical tool anda more natural swing. The first difference is a 1/2 degree change in head/pick angle. Minor to be sure but still signifigant when swinging. The less the angle the more natural the swing. Reactor is 28.5, Viper 30.5, Cobra/Quark 31, New Fusion/Nomic 32, with an addtional 3/4 in the New Fusion handle and the old Fusion at 33.5 . Handle materials do make a difference. The alumnum shafts flex. The Carbon fiber doesn't. Not a big deal on ice but it is on mixed. Grip size and shape change as well. There is a reason BD has taylored their handles more and more as their performace/pick angle design has increased. Not a single modern tool mentioned here that won't easily out perform and make ice climbing easier than any previous straight shafted tool. That said most of the pure ice climbs done in the world were first done with straight shafted tools. Which is to say...a club with a nail through it will get you up most ice if you are capable I have owned and used both currnt BD tools. $100 difference on tools? Been asked and answered many times before. Guys like Powderhound and Oscar who climb hard enough and know the difference in tools climb on the Viper generally, out of choice. But worth it? You get good value from the price of either tool. They are both "worth it". You have to decide just how much "worth" the differences are to you.

I suspect Bob was more worried about his partner and just took the dbl load in stride Either way

Pardon my editing But after almost dying while climbing 2 years ago I have had pause to think and rethink similar comments. If I bite it while climbing my considered wish is everyone from CC.com stop by my grave and give be a little kick and say..."dumb shit"! Buddies have already split up my gear. 'Cuz no way I can live down the embarrassment by then..mistake or just freak accident. It is obvious in our game, shit happens

Long standing misquote....generally accepted as Hemmingways. Although the point is the same. The chance of getting killed in the mtns is a part of climbing...ignore it at your own peril. "This is one in a long list of quotations mysteriously attributed to Ernest Hemingway. While the general public seem to agree that this is in fact a Hemingway quotation, scholars have some reservations and for good reason. The early Hemingway did not believe that bullfighting was a sport. For him it was a tragedy. See his October 20, 1923 article titled "Bullfighting A Tragedy" reprinted in By-Line: Ernest Hemingway Selected Articles and Dispatches of Four Decades edited by William White. Hemingway reiterates his beliefs regarding the tragedy of bullfighting in his 1932 book, Death in the Afternoon. In July of 2006, Gerald Roush, a visitor to Timeless Hemingway, provided a possible source for the "three sports" quotation. He cited a story titled "Blood Sport" by Ken Purdy, which originally appeared in the July 27, 1957 edition of the Saturday Evening Post. The story is reprinted in Ken Purdy's Book of Automobiles (1972). Gerald provided a scan of where the quotation appeared and it reads as follows: " 'There are three sports,' she remembered Helmut Ovden saying. 'Bullfighting, motor racing, mountain climbing. All the rest are recreations.' " Gerald noted that the character of Helmut Ovden is modelled after Ernest Hemingway. This could explain why the quote has been so widely attributed to Hemingway over the years. In May of 2007, Rocky Entriken wrote to Timeless Hemingway with another possible author of the "three sports" quotation: "As I am told, the quote belongs to Barnaby Conrad, a writer of the same era as Hemingway and a San Francisco raconteur of some note. Mostly he did magazine articles but his books include The Death of Manolete. My source is Dan Gerber, yet another writer of the era."

Sorry pretty naive' imo. Few other sports have the kind of risks involved that we take for granted on almost any outing at any level. There was a reason Hemmingway thought there were only three sports. The reason is the opportunity to die is very high in each..then and now. Knowing the fact and we choose to do it anyway. Ignoring that fact is naive and dangerious imo. Talking about it is a good thing...keeps us all honest.

Rafael..good question. Here is my personal take on the hammer mod. First the Nomic is extremely well balanced. One of the reasons it is such an exceptional tool on mixed and pure ice even though it is lighter than many technical tools available. Adding weight to the back of a Nomic is counter productive and changes the balance of the tool and to some extent removes a bit of my joy while using them. But the up side is I only use a hammer on mixed where I know I'll need a pin or two. On mixed I use a Astro pick and no pick weights. Swing balance on mixed isn't nearly as critical as it is on ice for me. I seldom swing...way more often just hook and go on mixed. So bottom line? I think the Nomic performs so well overall that I am willing to use them and modify them to cover more terrain requirements. Hammer is one of the compromises worth having when required. For $50 I think having a bolt on hammer is worth it on "my" Nomic. But I also have a Chouinard alpine hammer for a third tool that I use if I decide the climb is better suited to it than the compromise of adding a hammer on the Nomic itself. My comment: "The addition makes no discernable change in swing action." I believe that to be true for most that will use the hammer conversion, but I know/feel the difference and frankly would like a better solution. And while I have been looking I just don't know of one yet. The best I have been able to do so far is cut the Quark hammer down to a bare minimum so that is still usable for pounding pins on the Nomic conversion with the least amount of added weight. But to do it right you have to manage weight, how available the hammer is for angle and extension from the shaft and surface area. All conflicting requirements for what we really want...a Nomic that climbs well. One of the things I found very interesting with my new Fusions was the weight comparisons. Fusion (with hammer obviously) and Nomic with pick weights are exactly the same weight! Swing balance is different though...Fusion seems heavier. Weight in the back of the head is why I suspect. Nomics set up correctly never bounce on hard ice for me. More like the "one stick wonders". Lot of complaints that the Fusions bounce on moderate terrain. I suspect part of that is the difference in pick design and weight balance of the two tools, the rest being new techniques to learn. Hope that helps.

Good info and comments Don. Worth pointing out that Mt Blanc is a very complicated massif. You death totals are for the massif not Mt. Blanc specifically. While your Mt. Blanc summit numbers are correct the numbers of deaths include things like the toursits falling off the Midi for example or climbing major routes that are part of the Mt. Banc massif but have their own summits. Only added this post for clarities sake. 30 deaths in a month is common but a lot of climbing going on in the Massif as well. No other alpine area has as much difficult ground in such a compact area and such easy access.

"any reason to question its validity?" Should make David's Dad happy though

Any mtn THAT THOUSANDS DRIVE THEIR CARs UP or that 100s ride their bicycles up, to the summit, every summer aint the deadliest...sorry. But no qeustion they get some nasty weather and there are lots of frost bite and exposure cases. No one said it was easy....just not deadly at least going up anyway Here is just one of the many nasty switch backs! Winter? Take the guided snow coach up and down. "The Huntington Ravine offers challenging hikes, rock climbs, and ice climbs including: the Huntington Ravine Trail - considered one of the two most difficult hiking trails in the White Mountains; the NE Ridge of Pinnacle Buttress (5.7, 5-6 pitches); and a variety of winter ice climbing routes including the classic Pinnacle Gully (III NEI 3, 4-5 pitches), Odell's Gully (II/III NEI 2-3), South Gully (I NEI 1), and the Escape Hatch (I, popular descent route). The Lion Head, Huntington Ravine, and Boott Spur Trails all share the Pinkham Notch Visitor Center Trailhead with the Tuckerman Ravine Trail. See the Routes Overview Section below for a more complete routes list." Hardest thing there is a WI IV. Obvious it isn't the technical difficulties killing people. Sounds a lot like Hood, at least in winter, doesn't it?

Best piece of winter clothing I own for climbing....gamma MX hoody....but no way I'd ever pay retail for one. backcountry.com in SLC had been my go to store for the MX....but you have to be quick on sizes when the stuff goes on sale for 50% off. Google search is your best bet.