Dane

OK, you asked for it.."leashes are for dogs"

Lets leave the weight thing out of the ocnversation, OK? but I kinda like the "leash=looser" thing

Hi Joe, best to leave the new and old Fusions alone and get them on some steep mixed. They both work well there. Mods are for gumbies like me trying to take the Fusion on less than vertical terrain.

"I have some 2004 quarks with the pinky rest added on late... Been very happy with it and not looking at getting anything new" Why would you? Bit heavy compared to the newest tools (which might well be a good thing) but the original Quarks with a grip rest are still state of the art in modern ice tools. Gene..the guy who wears a belt and suspenders on his Quarks

Clarification here on Nitrox' comments: You don't want to fill the three notches in the shaft with a filler. They need to be filled with epoxy for this to work. Nor do you want to use much epoxy. It takes very little (just a 3 or 4mm layer in the bottom of the pommel groove) and there is little to clean up, none to trim. Clean up can be done with a paper towel after you bolt the pommel in place. Release agent goes on the shaft... There shouldn't be any epoxy around the holes in the shaft or require any fill....it is obvious if you have the actual tools in hand and very simple. All you want to do here is fill the three small notches in the shaft and add support to the single steel tooth of the pommel. With even a tiny bit of caution this would be hard to screw up. I did mine with the umbilical ties in place and didn't get epoxy any where near the cord. It took less than 10 minutes for the pair including cutting the pommels to clear the umbilical ties.

Taking Nitrox's idea and Petzl's limitation on their warrenty here is what I came up with. A short term fix until Petzl comes up with something better. No guarantee on how effective it will be. http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12/quick-fix-for-new-nomic-or-ergo-pommels.html

ONE tooth..and it is 3mm thick of heat treated stainless steel. The shaft it mates to is 6mm thick aluminum. As already mentioned they come new sloppy to the extreme where the original Nomic was a solid, tight fit even without ever having to crank the bolt holding them on.

I have a extremely high content (72%) stainless based epoxy that I use in the shop for bedding and fill. That is generally 2 1/2 times the steel in other epoxies. Cutting more and deeper grooves in the end of the aluminum shaft is a good start but you'll still have only the one male fitting on the pommel to interfase with the shaft. Every other one will only be the epoxy you add. As good as my steel epoxy is I know how epoxies adhere to the plastic (likely Delrin) and how tough they generally are in actual field use. I just don't believe it will offer the support required for the pommel to stay intact over the temperature extremes an ice tool will be used in and abuse of thousands and thousands of swings that are required.

My thought as well but I seriously doubt it because of the amount of abuse the pommel takes. This isn't an easy fix for several reasons, steel on aluminum for one, too much slop in the mating sufaces originally and there is not full contact on the mating surface. I like Petzl gear. And I am not over reacting here. Ice tools need to be 100%...period...end of story. Nomic and Ergo are not with this pommel interface design. It's bad. Reminds me of the Clog Vulture failures in the early '80s. It will be interesting to see just how fast Petzl reacts.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/12/petzl-nomic-and-ergodanger-danger-will.html

I do chatter. But I also try to make it useful chatter. FWIW this from the guy that took the ride on Pineapple: "To set the record straight the ropes were 60m. And I clipped into the normal tree belay at the end of P1. As leader I intentionally headed off the normal route as the far left side seemed to hold more ice and that was the point. My partner and I were tuning up for a trip to ice climb in Banff in the next couple of weeks. I worked over a bulge, set a knifeblade, continued to work up toward a solid tree belay - I didn't find the climbing difficult. Finding limited protection opportunities I clipped a small tree from which I worked up and to the right. Both ice tools were placed in one patch of ice - one above the other by about two feet. Both had passed the "Lowe" tug so I comfortably moved my left foot up - at this point the ice popped. The movement moved me right over a lip which pulled the plant, then pulled the knifeblade (due to angle of fall)." And a past comment from Jens about the ice in the pass: "the metamorphic andesite at Alpental provides very little adhesion for thin ice climbing in comparison to limestone, granite, gneiss, or sandstone. In fact of every type of rock I've climbed, the thin ice at the pass, just doesn't seem to stick to the rock as well as others. (I'd suspect that the ice delaminating caused both tools to blow*) I've seen big sheets delaminate up at the pass." Thanks for the grammar and spelling lesson Rat. I had intended the correct version of "sublimate" as in "vanish, vaporize, weaken". As I don't believe the ice on the pass ever laminates in the first place because of the rock quality there.

Drew sez: Now there is a shock. But you finally got up Sir Donald so you can comment on the rock 1st hand now Urs hole was fun 3 weeks ago likely a death trap again now. The topic is about early season ice. Frenchman Falls today is a great example. It is climbable now. But as a high volume falls it will come apart quickly (likely hrs) when the temps warms up or the sun hits it. High volume falls are very dangerious in our rapidly changing conditions. Very low volume or weeps are likely to stay together longer as conditions change. (and not a whole lot better in Canada) But you also have to look at what kind of rock the ice is fixed to. The Snoqualmie pass area ice sublaminates faster than any other ice I have climbed on. The rock in the area is generally a hard non porous type that doesn't allow much attachment compared to good old limestone. Once the temps hit just above freezing (some times all that takes is a bit of sun on the rock) the ice is no longer attached. Things like the huge fall on Pineapple Express a couple of season's ago is the likely result. Jen's and I did PE a couple days previous to that fall, on a cold, over cast day, during a snow storm. And the ice was solid that day..

Where Trainwreck climbs...and this is "fat conditions". And in my prefered WI IV+ super jumbo size condition And still steep enough that one lap will take the paint off yer Darts

These? We need a review C/F Seems the Petzl bails need replacing ever couple of years if you live in Canmore. (seriously who else in the world gets out that much) The stainless wire gets fatigued over time. It is a problem but easily addressed. Much better fit on the Sabers or Seracs for my boots. BD is coming out with a new bail that kinda splits the difference and is made for the smaller profile soles. Everyone at the Bozeman Icefest should track Bill Belcourt down at the BD booth and ask him for a pair

"Same with monos: I find moves like drop knees, stems in awkward formations, more fluid transitions thanks to being able to twist the point around, are much easier and feel more natural in monos. It feels more like rock climbing than bashing up the ice, although this does apply to the more vertical and funky stuff than simple WI3/4." Soft boots and mono points go hand in hand. Rafal you are obviously a smart guy and have hit the nail on the head. Good leashless tools can make ice a lot more natural and open a totally new spectrum of what you can do technique wise. If monos work for you, great. They do offer some unigue opportunities if you can take advantage of them. Taking advantage of that technique wise is totally different than saying "monos are the best thing since hot bread". Both styles of 'pons have advantages and disadvantages. I choose what I use and where for a reason. I also have found that no matter what 'pon you use having quiet feet very helpful. You don't need to bash for placements. Better to read the ice and step lightly. But if forced to choose I'll always take a set of horizonals no matter what the terrain is. Too many advantages imo not to. Unless of course we are headed to Hafner

Just trying to be polite. BWTF why not? Obviously some are slow learners. Climb on those Darts a bit danny and you'll find the paint doesn't hold up well. When a good many of the best ice climbers in the world suggest dual horizontals I value the opinion. But I was of the same opinion long before I read their comments. I got the idea from my first ice climbing partner, a Austrian, Otzi, who was a little older (you should see his tools) and now deceased. May he rest in peace. My Darts don't have as much paint on them...most of it is gone as well as most of the mono point from climbing stuff like this. I choose to use horizontals on ice like this.

This from Will Gadd..who can climb in anything he wants...but chooses to climb on Horizontals. "Just use the Sabertooths--I've used them to climb m12, WI as hard as it gets, high altitude, logging, great all-purpose rigs as you note. And yep, if crampons get too light then they stop working..."

Send me a PM next time it freezes up and we'll get out! Skookum is too good to miss and a short drive for us.

Thanks for the link Jon. FYI....and just my opinion but no way in hell if you use that method on a pair of climbing boots for an Intuition or a La Sportiva inner boot will they fit. You need way more toe cap than a pair of thick wool socks as a starter. Better bang your heel and toes when the boot is hot because if you don't you will regret it later. And likely pay the tab in blood..your blood. Spraying lube on a liner you'll be climbing in makes no sense to me when a plastic shopping bag does a better job and is easier on the inner boot. In comparison to a ski boot, climbing boots and their inner boots are very, very fragile. Monkey around with them much when they are hot and you'll be ripping eyelets out of the boots or just tearing the material. As I noted not much foam in a Spantik inner to mold in the first place. I've molded lots of ski boots for myself and customers. Climbing boots are a totally different animal. For climbing boot liners I don't think the TGR link is a good source of info. There is some good info there if you read every page but getting that info translated inot somethng useful by someone who knows what they are doing and the differences in use and fit of both styles boots is a totally different story. Ski boot fit is not climbing boot fit.YMMV

"Any 12 point crampons will work. With that said a good set of mono points are worth the money your looking $110 used plus or minus, or about $180 new." You should have stopped at "any 12 point crampon will work" No reason to buy a mono point or a vertical set of points either. Neither will improve your climbing. Step one is get a good pair of ice climbing boots..the rest is easy and you can generally borrow tools at first. G12, Sabertooth, Serac are among the many good 'pons that will get you up WI6 or WI2. Used most can be had for $75 or less here in the for sale forum. These might help some before you drop coin. Also worth looking at the boot reviews. And trying a bunch on first. http://www.rockandice.com/articles/gear/ice-climbing-gear/article/883-black-diamond-serac-vs-sabretooth http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/cramponsmono-points-dual-points.html http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/black-diamond-serac-crampon.html G12s here:

"Maybe heat it with a heat gun and mold it by hand?" That is what I would do or if you wanted them redone and you are local and want a betetr than 'OK" fity I would just have Zach redo them for you and address that and any other monor problems you might have.

Finally! Here is how.... http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/double-boot-inner-boots-molding-fitting.html

It is Two years later. Has any one changed their mind?

"Shitty ice in Washington? Sorry for being redundant." Stoke and reminder from Joe...

I am thinking about driving over early the 7th likely, leaving on Sunday some time... Anyone want to car pool?