Dane

One thought came to mind while rereading this thread. The subject under discussion needs some realistic perspective. Not uncommon to get hit by multiple impacts on any ice or serious alpine climb. But even then the vast majority of impacts are not something that will bother you or your helmet, be it polystyrene or polycarbonate. Those same impacts on your unprotected head might well be a totally different story. If you are talking impacts that will destroy a polystyrene helmet then you should also realise that the same impact to a polycarbonate helmet will likely cause a serious head injury. While both helmet styles recieve UIAA certification the amount of actual protection offered by the different manufacturing techniques are quite different in a serious impact. Take a look at bicycle helmets to get an idea of what that industry thinks is "reasonable" protection. No polycarbonate helmets there. And for good reason. Rockfall as part of a "class" trip isn't acceptable by any standard. Neither is an uncontrolled fall. Rock and ice fall may be a part of extreme alpinism but it is not accepted as OK, at any time. Same reason we climb in winter, really cold conditions or at night to avoid such things. How many accidents reports have you read where the helmeted climber/skier died of a fall, rock fall, or avalanche? The "certified" climbing helmet isn't really all that much protection in the first place. Helmets are one of those things that are only used in case of an accident. Much better idea is not to be in situation where you'll likely use one for the intended purpose. Accidents do happen, so wear a helmet. Make it the best one you can afford, but any helmet is better than no helmet. Better yet, the best idea is, climb smart so you never need one.

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First off no clue who the club or instructor is. As I said, "hard to keep up with all the modern gear". In this case the guy is wrong on both counts. Now what is funny is both Modod's in Banff and Feathered Friends staff here couldn't figure out how to use the new ice axe straps when they first showed up on packs. But the new strap system does work very well once you figure it out. As far as multiple impacts are concerned the instructor just doesn't have the right imfortmation or experience to make that judgement. He obviously doesn't understand the limitations of polycarbonate or polystyrene imo. Polycarbonate helmets are better than nothing if you get hit with something or you hit something but not by much. In other words they give less protection than a "throw away" polystyrene. I have taught and guided rock and ice climbing and guided internationally and broken more than one helmet along the way. I based my opinions and comments on helmets I have personally broken. I currently climb in a Grivel Salamander the majority of time. But given the option of climbing in just one helmet I'd take the current polystyrene Tracer model from BD. Look around you'll see that helmet on some pretty hard alpine climbs. Multiple hits quite likely. A good read on the subject are Twight's thoughts. http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/products.php?gid=11#bothist

The instructor is a nob on this particular subject. Helmet is certified to the same level as the ones he has suggested. Some would argue (myself included) that polystyrene actually offers better protection than the polycarbonate helmets from any impact. Having used both and broken a polystyrene helmet in a fall I know which one I'd rather have on my head when things are bouncing off it. And it is not polycarbonate. Trust me, breaking a polystyrene helmet in a fall or from falling objects will generally end any trip at that point. And you'll want to go down. From my limited experience take the same impact in a polycarbonate helmet and you might not be making the choice. More likely someone else will be making it for you. But being a nob myself it is hard to keep up with all the new gear. So I can see the problem. For an instructor, even in a volenteer position, I would have hoped for more.

Here is my follow up: Guess I am the lucky one. Did a price match with EMS's web site over the phone on Monday. Order was delivered Friday. Never paid retail at Moosejaw for anything and haven't had a problem with any of the four orders.

Done right, using the proper distances and percentages to get the AT it can be very accurate from race results. More so than the generic $500 lab testing. Why? Because most will push harder in a race than they will in testing for all the obvious reasons. Most runners will find it easier to use 5 and 10 K race results, cycling 15 or 20K TTs.

Perceived exertion is one way to test for AT. It is not the best way but will get you in the ballpark generally. You have to remember that AT is a moving target. Ballpark will work for some and not for others depending on what you what the info for and how you train. Your AT might well be between 170 and 185. But to work the most efficiently you'll want a more precise target and a way to recognize that target. With some history of matching perceived exertion to actual HR/AT (by using a monitor) you can judge the relationship very closely. An easy (easy being a relative term as it is extremely hard work done right) way to test AT that is by continual testing in time trials. You can do that on the bike or by running with a simple heart rate monitor that gives MHR and Average HR. Info is available on the details/distances and percentages you'll use in the tests are in most cycle or running training books or Polar's web site I suspect. And are very easy yo apply to come up with your own results. The cycle and triathlon info has been using HR monitors the longest and the best info is usually found there. All of it easily applies to climbing. AT will change for sport and as our fitness changes. Testing often and accurately is the best answer. The more often you test the more accurate and current your training info will be.

OK, nice edit "At a given age, your MHR is what it is." On that we can agree. I'd also agree that riding uphill is great training for actaul climbing on foot. I also find there are less injuries on the bike than the typical over use injuries I get trail ruinning up and down. And more importantly recovery is faster from hard work outs on the bike.

We may well be miss reading each other. If so my apologies. Max heart rate is not "fixed" by age. It is fixed by your body, individually. It does decline over time but not at a given figure of one beat per minute, per year. Just so we are clear, 200-your age does not equal your MHR, correct? Which is what I had read into your previous statement. ASSUME and all AT will, again, depend on the sport and your level of fitness in that sport. The higher level of fitness and your level of specificity to training in that sport will define the differeneces in your AT. I'll stand by my previous statement the LT is "ever changing" and one (or two) beats can be the difference from studies I've seen.

Max heart rate (MHR) is indeed fixed. Your AT and what you can hold and hit physically as a max is however typically different for each sport. Running, biking, swimming for example. In decreasing order for a typical age group athelete. If it is not either you are in the upper .01% of the population for fitness or you aren't working hard enough in any one sport. Most likely the latter. The obvious goal is to make all sports hit your max and hit the same AT. Harder said than done. The key to what others have said doesn't typically apply in the real world because AT is fitness/sport specific. The more fit you get in each sport, the closer the numbers are @ MHR and @ AT get when compared to each sports specific numbers. (Numbers are mine but mean nothing as a starting or ending point as every human body produces its own specific start and stop numbers) Max HR will as an example give you 196 running, the bike 192 and swimming 190. Your AT will normally run within a single beat or two of each other in all three sports (again all this depends on your level of fitness for each specific sport) Say 180r/178b/176 swimming. Closing that AT gap and the MHR attained can be a goal for a Triathelete. But most people will gauge AT by feel (inaccurate and more prone waver) and not use lab testing. So the numbers can easily be skewed up or down by your pain tolerence, hydration and rest cycles. AT is ever changing as you loose and gain fitness. Best way to track LT (outside of on the spot blood tests) is logging every workout with a HR monitor and continued PE tests on your own. The only times of the year when my MHR #s meet on the bike and running is when I am intentionally peaking in late summer. By that time of year I am as fit as I'll be for the year in each sport. Oh and by the way...there is no way in hell you can tell age by you Max Heart Rate. (MHR) That is ancient and horribly inaccurate science. Which is why you haven't been working hard enough and will generally have no clue what your max HR is if you are using system or your real AT.

I was upstairs and agree a great show. Carlos has changed little in 30 years mentallity or physically. And he is still climbing hard. I got a good laugh out of the guy asking if Carlos would be doing anymore "signifigant climbs". And Carlo's typical reserved. Most "hard guys" today would be happy with a life time resume that just matched what Carlos did in Feb '08 in 30 days of climbing around Banff. I should have introduced myself. Saw a few familiar faces I couldn't put names too. Drove Carlos to the airport this morning so we had pleanty of time ot catch up. We should all make a point of getting together in the Icicle some weekend in the future.

It's not. Your max heart rate will be higher running. Running will be harder on your body physically and you'll have a longer recovery time. Not a big deal to spend 8 hrs on a bike working hard. Try that running. The recovery times are not easy to compare.

My point is I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch over a dirt bike in the Coulee. Stop and talk with them in a frinedly manner? Sure. Bet most will take it in the way it is offered. Now about the rest of you assholes littering, trashing the little vegitation that was there, shitting in every corner of the basalt and making trails all over hell and gone. I got a bone to pick with you. Not a diversion just the facts. Climbers have indeed trashed more of the Coulee than any, and I do mean any, other user group. So you might want to "clean up" the dirt bikers but you could spend your time better picking up after your breathren.

Climbers have trashed more of the environment in the Coulee during the last 20 years than the tourists, military, locals, 4x4s, old I90 or dirt bikes have in the last 500. We are a lot of things but as a user group we are not the best environmentalists.

What Matt said. Many hard WI5 and WI6 and lots of difficult mixed were climbed with a traditional curved tool in one hand and a reverse curved tool in the other. Picks no where near the same for placement or displacement. We use to think (and I still do) that there can be some advantage to that.

How about a face to face? Beer or dinner before or after for the CC crowd?

I used to live in an area where I could rock climb within minutes of my door. Issaquah...not so much. I ended up on a road bike for the same reason...right out my front door. If you train hard/right on a bike it will increase your endurance for everything from running to climbing. Little weak on the upper body though. Not just bike specific but these two are good. www.beginnertriathlete.com www.slowtwitch.com Climbers generally like to climb even on a bike. Ellensburg has the longest steep climb in the state just north of town once the snow is gone. http://bicycleclimbs.com/climbdetail.aspx?ClimbId=234 (many west side climbs listed here as well) http://www.cascade.org/Community/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=6040 Have fun!

Hummmmm......that's bad. I bought it hook line and sinker Thanks for the heads up!

Hopefully no more ice tools! Great tools but can't justify owning two pairs of Quarks.

Perfect and thanks! PM sent.

Anyone got time to share a rope Thursday at Tieton before the show?

Where to start? Carlos and I were climbing on Midnight Rock. Came down to find the car broken into and a bunch of gear gone. Couple of days later we spot the guys in Buhler's bright red Javelin pile jacket and my white framed Varnets up the Icicle. Hard to miss with the jacket and all. We call the cops which soon arrive and head up the hill to confront the guys. Pretty funny, hard to run away when you are top roping. I chopped their rope in several places when I pulled their anchors and then they went to jail. Cop wanted to know why we just didn't beat the shit out of them. Carlos was pissed but he's no meat eater. My excuse? Three on one!? That was almost 30 year ago... Last month a bag of ice screws went missing at the base of Louise Falls...and no, sadly not tourists. It was a group of 3 that walked off from the base of the pillar and rapped from the tree. End of the rap was where we had left our gear. Been several incidents of gear being stolen before and since...but none where you can point a finger at other climbers. But it is obvious that it isn't such a trust worthy community outside your own group of friends...and may be never really has been.