RobBob

Mark my words, now that Gore has retired to the old tin mine in TN, there will be a shiny new darling that advances rapidly in the running for the Democratic nomination. His name is John Edwards, a senator from North Carolina. While only a rookie senator, this will be seen as an asset, since he has little 'baggage.' A smiling, vapid frat-boy, but possessing the gift of gab, he has everything including charisma and stories of personal suffering to draw Democrats who vote with their hearts and not their minds. Don't believe him---he's made a freaking fortune as a personal-injury lawyer, and represents what's wrong with America. I post this now so that you will remember in 20 months or so what a prescient thinker I am. My instincts have been good in the past. For instance, in early 1991, I attended a business meeting in the Excelsior Hotel in Little Rock. Then-governor Clinton greeted each of us at the door with a handshake and a smile, and proceeded to give our group an extraorinarily warm welcome to Arkansas. (If I had known at the time what he probably was up to upstairs that day, I would have promptly washed my hands. ) After the meeting, I told my wife "I just met a future President of the United States." At the time he was an unknown like Edwards. Remember, don't vote for Edwards!

Offwhite that is amazing---I have had a mental picture of Dr. Flash as one of those clowns too! Maybe he really is one...a modern-day boxing clown-bot, programmed with NPR and Libertarian party feedback loops.

I was trying to correlate the Myers-Briggs personality profiles to this trait, expecting to find the ISTP as a predominant (risk-taker) type. Instead, it was the INTJ profile that coming up, which is quite different from ISTP. Could it be the deliberate thinking and decision-making involved that draws the INTJ? I dunno. Interesting subject. BTW, I still want mtngoat to take that M-B survey...but he thinks it's a trap, I'm afraid.

Now that the contestants have voted with their assorted avatars, let's hear from the rest of the audience...

...dinner with Crazy Polish Bob

Plus the US sue-me sue-you system isn't as prevalent there, right?

I like this thread.

nice!

I've been off the board since yesterday due to work, but I also have enjoyed the mtngoat/j_b debate. I have only been able to do a scan of it, but I would say that they got logjammed over j_b's insistence over peer-reviewed documents...and mtngoat has pointed out something noteworthy on that issue. Unfortunately, peer-reviewed means too often "like minded people"-reviewed. Go ahead, scientists, spray away in response. But in my experience, when you draw together paper-writers in various disciplines, you find that their politics, motivations, and biases are the same. Look to the funders of studies for clues to what the results are likely to say on this issue. Where is Copernicus when we need him?

freeclimb, was it 80,000 or 800,000? And remember, you called me too lazy to research...but you're the one who shot from the hip and was only halfway correct on contrails last week. gotta go!

Yep, mtngoat. But nobody here has the fortitude or interest to address my original thesis: That by using the 'not in my backyard' philosphy and forcing our animal food supply outside our borders, we'll actually be worse off for several reasons. Jim instead has decided that he knows best what's right for American water policy: Note the cynical attitude about "big money." Now there's an open-minded government employee who business can trust to see all sides of the picture! I don't think so. He just wants to control something in his working world. And he's being a tweaker. Read his post above with the word-games about 'historical' aquifer depletion being predominantly. The point I wade was that residential/commercial use is on a rapid rise, while agriculture has peaked due to BMPs. Can anyone comment on the original issue---the effect of moving our food upply abroad?

Hey trask leave the goat alone. I discovered that he's honored me in his bio.

Mr. Natural's got it right. "You should see what's happening in the elevator!"

freeclimb, you're a trip, too. Where did I say that animal farms didn't pollute? But it's a matter of scale of the pollution, if your true primary concern is spending your energy and $ efficiently in combatting pollution. 80,000 gallons of sludge at Circle Four sounds like a big mess and is. But as you probably are aware, a good raw sewage discharge from a municipal waste treatment plant during a flood, or a primary waste discharge necessitated by excessive stormsewer water in the system, dwarfs the Circle Four discharge and happens with a lot more regularity. We weren't talking about air quality issues, but you're right, there are health problems for workers associated with animals, particularly in buildings. Chicken farming is especially bad. But there are similar issues in the fiberglass industry, etc., etc. You sound like you just want to tar & feather animal agriculture. Jim, while you're trying to accuse me of half-truths about aquifer water use, tell me what the main Central Valley ag water source is? Is it aquifer or surface water? Does that change your equation and make yours an ecologist's half-truth? As far as parsing words, and dealing in half-truths, I don't believe that I have. My point has been simple and straightforward. We humans are point-sources of pollution and are more responsible for (water) pollution than animal farmers are. Moreover, we seek to paint others as wearing black hats and we try to control others' actions, while putting ourselves on the good-guy pedestal. And we ain't there. And we aren't doing what we could to clean up our own act.

One last post... but trask, there's more of OUR shit in the rivers. That doesn't make the headlines. And WE should pay for that, and deal with it first.

rbw, I understand your point, but I'm responding to a personal attack, which is something entirely different. I know this sounds like an excuse, but I have GOT to get my work done, so I will be gone awhile. Screw all you guys. I am unfamiliar with Dru's citations, but I am going to read up on them a little later---with an open mind, too, because I know he has one as well.

Hey Jim, is this the statement that makes you decide that I'm an "armchair quarterback with no real-world experience in the issues?" Just where do you "see either uninformed opinions, or blatant lies put forth as first hand knowledge?" Did I describe hog lagoons incorrectly? It looks to me like I have stated the facts pretty fucking clearly. Maybe the volume or NPK measures of human sewage discharge are closer to 1000:1 over animal discharge. Otherwise I fail to see your problem. I think that you have showed your ass this morning, my friend. And I'm glad to know that you are a superior climber.

I see that you replied before I did, and are trying to 'cheers' your way out of having popped off. Next you'll be going back and editing your personally offensive original post. Fuck you, kid. You're way off base. Your tirade reaction only proves my point, that so many people emotionally launch themselves at stopping other people from doing things, yet fail to walk the talk themselves. You neatly put yourself in that category by failing to fact-find before you popped off.

I guess once again we see the ire stirred deep within the enviro-scientist. My credentials are that I operate a business in with I deal with the rules and regulations of several states' divisions of environmental management, both on the air and water quality side. I am a civil engineer by training. I aim to be a prudent user of resources, as well as a fairly-well-informed person, and I am involved in the stakeholder process of DEM issues in those states. Those are my credentials. What are yours, pussnuts?

Jim, What the fuck are you talking about, and from what pulpit are you preaching?

Bullshitrunoff would make a good alternative name for Spray

good one, trask. I honestly hadn't thought about that for this particular ache.

Cheers, offwidth. I'm not a lobbyist for agriculture, mind you, I'm just for honesty in the debate. And one hard spin that I believe has been put over on the American public is this spectre, as Iain puts it, of 'hog shit runoff.' Currently, the standard waste mgt practice for large hog operations is anaerobic, lined lagoons. Unless there is a failure of the lagoon (i.e., a levee breeches), there is no 'hog shit runoff.' But I understand how the average citizen would believe that there is, based on our news media's reporting of environmentalists' assertions. Iain, I agree that row-crop agriculture has traditionally been a big water user, but I believe that overall you would find that ag water use is actually declining due to BMPs, rather than advancing. However, residential/commercial water use is rising fast. Hell, Boone Pickens wants to build a pipeline from his ranch in west Texas in order to sell water to the Dallas-Fort Worth area!

But hey offwidth, I really believe you are absorbing what the environmentalists build media headlines about. Human waste goes into treatment centers, where it goes through primary and secondary treatment. Weather events, overloads, and plain management screw-ups cause discharge of primary-treated and even raw human sewage into the watershed across the US---often. It is definitely happening, particularly during rainy periods! But it is not a headline grabber, because the scapegoat of the story would be...us. I challenge anyone to point to real evidence of significant acquifer contamination from livestock operations. This is a 'scary spectre' story that forces the target of the story to defend itself. You know how that works---by the time the defendent proves himself innocent, the damage to his reputation is done. And don't let people tell you that agriculture and industry are the bad guys in aquifer depletion, either. The fastest-growing user of aquifer water is---we residential/commercial users. You can look at depletion-zone cones on maps, and the majority of them are centered on municipal areas due to their water supply. But who is cutting back on water use in their home? People are building bigger houses, with multiple shower-heads in their showers. (I wonder how many shower heads are in Bill Gates' home?) I am not in the livestock business, but I do have a pretty good working knowledge about watersheds and about aquifers across the US.