Thinker

I usually just concentrate on getting my toes out of the way...

On Devil's Tower a few years back I dropped the cap to my Nalgene bottle (OK, it was more than a few years back). To my amazement it landed on my shoe and stopped right there. I so badly wanted to yell up to my partner and have him check it out, but I figured it would disappear before I could explain the significance of a blue lid on my shoe. So I picked it up and went about my biznez of belaying.

Rebels attack; aid groups bolt Baghdad link

http://www.anneroumanoff.com/marga/marga3/scotch.html creative attempts are good, too.

Erik pontificates yet again......

Back in the midwest someone showed me how flashing my headlights between lowbeams and highbeams about 6 times in quick succession could change traffic lights from red to green....seriously. I tried it a few times, seemed to work best a few hundred feet from the intersections. Haven't tried it out here in the PacNW.

ditto. I've spent time on Rainier in the I, the Fitz, and the Eldo. I bought the Eldo for pretty much the same reasons Lambone gave.

and don't forget to polish your shoes, update your will, and chant between answering their questions. but seriously, I take off my hat and my sunglasses when waiting in line to cross any border.

THAT doesn't sound like any fun..... In any case, it seems like a reasonable followup test might be to test the difference in strength between the fig8 on a bight and the bowline on a bight. I suspect there's already loads of data on that and BD was confident that the fig8 would stand up to the torture...which it did in every case. edit: it's also interesting to note that when the bowline was used, the rope broke at the highest tension in the complete set of trials. Certainly not related and not significant, but still an interesting side note.

The 'point of the test' was to test possible differences in the strength of a clove hitch when used on oval biners vs D-shaped biners. Granted, there weren't enough trials performed to obtain statistically 'confident' data, but in my opinion it's more precise than a few sentences about clove hitches on logs without any quantitative data. I glean this from the results: Clove hitches probably won't 'slip' before the rope breaks in any situation I use them for. Clove hitches don't appear to slip at the 1,000 pounds cited in previous literature. CBS, how would YOU have attached the rope to the pulling mechanism without using a knot?

Damn....sorry for killing this thread by posting pertinent information....

Winter camping in Nebraska can come close....

check rescue supply catalogs, arborist catalogs, fire fighting catalogs, and army surplus.

Here's some info on hitches and knots I was forwarded via email over a year ago. The same info may be on Paul's website, I don't have time to check: We did not really have any clove hitch data on file here so I conducted a quick test with the following results: All tests involved a bight knot (i.e. Figure 8 or Bowline) being used to attach one end of the rope to the moving crosshead of our universal testing machine and the other end of the rope being attached to the stationary base of our testing machine via a dressed down Clove Hitch on a Carabiner. The load rate was 200 mm/min (~8 in/min). Test #1: Knot: Bowline Rope: 10.5mm Std Biner: Oval Result: Rope Broke at Bowline @ 3378 lbs (Note: Figure 8 was used for the rest of the tests) Test # 2,3: Knot: Figure 8 Rope: 10.5mm Std Biner: Oval Result: Rope Broke at Clove Hitch @ 3236 & 2876 lbs Test # 4,5: Knot: Figure 8 Rope: 8.1mm Dry Half Rope Biner: Oval Result: Rope Broke at Clove Hitch @ 2034 & 1873 lbs Test # 6,7: Knot: Figure 8 Rope: 10.5mm Std Biner: Light D Result: Rope Broke at Clove Hitch @ 3142 & 3208 lbs Test # 8,9: Knot: Figure 8 Rope: 8.1mm Dry Half Rope Biner: Light D Result: Rope Broke at Clove Hitch @ 1918 & 1909 lbs Conclusions: There does not seem to be any significant difference between using a Oval and a Light D with a Clove Hitch. None of the Clove Hitches slipped at all (I don't know what would happen if the ropes were soaked). No only do Ovals and Light D's have difference geometries but they also are made from significantly different rod stocks; the Oval stock is quite a bit bigger than the Light D. You may be curious why these loads are much less than the strength of our Runners (22 kN / 4946 lbs) or a hand sized Camalot (16 kN / 3597 lbs). There are several reasons for this. First, during a lead fall the top anchor "feels" almost twice the tension in the rope. This is due to the climber generating force on one side of the lead piece and the belayer resisting this force by pulling on the other side of the piece. The second reason is that the ultimate strength of a climbing rope is not nearly as important as it ability to absorb energy. More energy it can absorb, the smaller the peak forces generated during the fall. BD ropes are well below (by at least 30%) the CEN criteria for maximum impact force during a test fall. Climbing ropes are amazing in their ability to absorb energy, I have never heard of a case where one has "broken" during a fall (it is possible to cut a rope as I am sure you know). I hope this answers your Clove Hitch question. Sorry to go on the tangent but whenever I supply real data to a customer I try to help convey the conclusions that can be drawn from it. Paul Tusting, ME Black Diamond Quality Assurance Engineer

I'll say it. A clove hitch is not a good knot for tying in with. In fact, it would be quite difficult to tie in with. I love it for lots of other reasons, but not for tying in. (I do know that's not what you really meant to say...just couldn't resist. )

4. No knot to forget to untie after climb. That in itself would unnerve me. Anyone else?

Yep, who needs to know a knot you can tie into a rope with when you don't have any other gear at hand? A bowline on a coil is absolutely worthless to practice. Who needs to know a knot you can tie around a tree with a bight in the middle of a rope? One of my regular partners climbs using a bowline with a Yo finish. I trust him to tie it properly and maintain it throughout the day....but I do look at it at the belay stations to double check, and I'm sure he looks at my tie-in knot from time to time, too.

from an objective source (http://www.rockandpaddle.com/rock_climbing.htm#Tying Knots): The Double Bowline Despite its wonderful quality of being easy to untie after hanging and falling, it consequently has been known to loosen on its own when unattended, such as on a big wall. It is also not as easy to recognize if tied incorrectly. However, with proper supervision, and a secure back-up knot, it can also be used as a knot for climbing.

right: wrong:

CAN easily be mistied with the tail on the outside of the loop, instead of on the inside (Anyone who has tied a bowline will know what I'm talking about.) plus, the knot needs to be retightend on a regular basis to prevent it from disintegrating.

fig-8's do not need to be backed up, but.... consider what backing it up with half of a dbl-fisherman's would do should one botch the fig-8 (as has oft happened). I could tie in with an overhand knot, and if it were backed up as described it would still be sound....a bitch to untie, but safe.

Now I know whose pocket this fell out of at the last pub club I attended....

from the NPS morning report. Saguaro National Park (AZ) Africanized Honeybees Attack Visitors On September 1st, a Tucson man and his 13-year-old son were attacked by Africanized honeybees while climbing on a cliff face in the park’s Tucson Mountain District. During the climb, the boy reached for a handhold above him. The rock he grabbed apparently dislodged a portion of the beehive, which neither climber had observed previously. The bees immediately began stinging the younger climber, who was on belay 50 feet up the cliff face. His father quickly lowered him and assisted with removal of his climbing harness. Both father and son were repeatedly stung as they ran back to the trailhead and their parked car, approximately 200 yards away. Other park visitors transported both individuals from the trailhead to a nearby fire station; from there, they were taken by ambulance to a local hospital. The father had been stung over 200 times and was hospitalized overnight. His son was stung about 50 times and was treated and released. The park has contracted with a local bee exterminator to treat and remove the bees. Africanized honeybees (AHBs) are a hybrid between non-native domesticated strains of European honeybees and an African strain and were accidentally released in Brazil in 1957. AHBs were first detected in Arizona in 1993, and at Saguaro in 1994. Although there have been several minor bee incidents since 1994, this is the most significant attack ever recorded at Saguaro. Aggressive behavior in AHBs is generally related to defense of an established colony. AHBs attack swiftly and intensely, and are more likely to sustain a prolonged attack, sometimes following victims up to a mile. Attacking AHBs can deliver 400 to 500 stings in a short time; the accumulated toxin from 500 stings can easily kill the average adult.

nice try....but the added weight of the liquid on your helmet could create a lethal amount of momentum should you slip or flip over backwards. Picture an infant taking it's first steps...essentially a tiny body taking it's huge head out for a walk. Best to stick with a Camelback, or a platypus in a fanny pack.

I see reality similarly. We intuitively take advantage of every nubbin or dish on a slab, effectively decreasing the angle of the slab in that locale. In addition, the soft rubber on shoe soles can actually deform and allow the individual grains of rock/grit to press into it, again with the effect of decreasing the slab angle and increasing the normal force (envision the grains of rubber as tiny toes all gripping the grains of rock as the shoe is pressed against it.) Since the characteristics of rubber change with temperature, there should be an optimal range where the rubber deforms enough to grip well, but not enough to start decreasing the coefficient of static friction. It would actually be interesting to get Mike Garrison's reaction to all this...anybody familiar with his stuff on rec.climbing?