scott_harpell

but matt, you cannot deny that there is one bolt at darrington in the same distance as there would be 15 bolts as another area. i guess you are misinterpreting my line of thinking. i said that it was a combination of the natural protection and the naturalness of the climbing that gives a climb quality status. it is nto a one or the other scenario. at darrington, if you were to hit those naturally protectable areas, the climbing would be the shits. but in a judgement call, it was worth sacrificing some of the natural protecion for quality of climbing. obviously this was an intentional decision whether it was conscious or not. it is easy to take my words in a black or white context, but i am saying that there is a sort of slider scale where using less natural protection may enhance the climbing considerably. It is possible to use the natural parts as you said, but this would be a different form of contrivance. it is a fine line between one contrivance and another, but it is one that i trust very few people to walk. i hope this clears up my stance.

Mmm carlburg... damn tasty... nothing better on hot day than a cold one.

Sure, that's the name of the game, and it's why chipping is wrong. But how many bolts are too many? Should you only climb routes that you can walk off or downclimb, thus enabling you to leave the rock clean of fixed gear? Are bolted anchors acceptable? Are slings better because they degrade more quickly? You seem to admit that there's some leeway for bolts, but your earlier posts make it seem like a fully bolted route is unacceptable. How many gear placements are enough to make an otherwise bolted route acceptable? i would probably say that a fully bolted route is overly-contrived. i do believe there is 'some leeway' for bolts, but i do nto necessarily trust the people who are bolting to make the decisions as to how much to bolt. there are many people which bolt in a way i would describe as minimally bolted. MattP, i think, was done tremendous work in the past and i am in no way taking away from his efforts but the precedents many bolters have shown is not one that i wish to continue. my rants are hyperbolic in a sense that i wish to counter the bolt-a-holics that are overbolting. clearly bolts are inevitable. an example is darrington where mixed routes are the norm, but bolts are few and far between and placed as a last resort. i applaud the skill and intelligence used in creating these routes and if i offended any creators i am sorry, but my words were based in hyperbole to counter the riciculous attitued of some that nature is their playground and to those that subscribe to the manifest destiny type attitude that says "if i cant beat it, i will conquer it. for the people bolting responsibly and conscientiously

in espresso.

lets start with a definition of rock climbing. here si the one that i am using. using the natural weakness in the rock to ascend using hands and feet. if we feel that it is necessary to use protection, can we not usethe sme means? ie. using the natural weakness? sure a bolt may be needed to protect occasionally inbetween gear placements, but shouldn't we try to find the most natural line not only in our climbing but also in the protection of those climbs. isn't that part of the game. balancing the two out? that is the beauty of finding a truly great climb which needs minimal alteration and gets you to the top. that is the name ofthe game isn't it?

if you all wanna keep up with the personal attacks against me... that is fine. cause i can play ball, but i would prefer that we try and discuss and not get derailed by those who just pop in to stir the shit. you know who you are.

cracked see also this post. You're confused because you're confusing the aesthetic beauty/environmental concerns angle with the ruined climbing potential/climbing concerns angle. There are many arguments for and against rock modification. It is not just "ooh icky trash" versus "but dude I couldn't climb it without these bolts", though those are two of the most obvious issues.

Squaw, you weren't talking about the visual effects of bolts, you were spraying some touchy-feely bullshit about inspiration. This is irrelevant to your argument. Please continue, I feel the enlightenment seeping in. i am not just arguing against them by one argument ace. i am using 3 now try to keep up and if you find your ritalin try and add something constructive.

I like nude art!! You gotta problem w/ nude art? quite the contrary... that was my point.

what percentage of bolts are painted? 1%? ... making climbs safer through bolting is like painting over nude art to give them clothing.

so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? well the majority of people will need via-ferrata to climb 90% of the climbs at index... should we be gathering iron or will you ocncede that this argument is faulty at best? Nope...won't concede...its a continuum...you said 90%...general population this is true...90% of climbers, not true... but we are talking about the general population. we do not own crags just because we are uber-cool climbers. NO! we are users just like anyother user. our climbing gives us no priviledge except the one we make by busting our ass and climbing cool shit. being a climber dont mean shit.

so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so? majority wins, minority LOSES (except w/ that asshole, Bush) Great aint it? well the majority of people will need via-ferrata to climb 90% of the climbs at index... should we be gathering iron or will you ocncede that this argument is faulty at best?

why do we have to climb every climb? it is the reward for getting strong and working hard at climbing and getting a good 'head' for leading spicy routes for the elite to be able to climb these sketchy routes. i dont think every route need to be climbed by 100% of climbers. i think it is great that there are come climbs that 95% of the population wouldn't even try. it mystifies the accomplishments of those who have made the sacrifice, dedication and the effort to climb something soo hard and bold. it is in a word inspiring.

so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that? Cuz 95% of the folks that climb them want the bolts... so?

chestbeat? hardly.

xactly!

so why dont they give others the chance to try the climb in its natural state? why cant you get that?

but climbers go out of there way to go on a climb and should be prepared for he endeavor. 6 year old crossign the street do so out of necessity. weak juxtaposition. bolts are for safety? well if you are concerned about safety, then climbing is not the sport for you. people die all the time doign this sport. this is a sport of calculated risks. if you aren't up for a certain climb then wait until you get stronger/bolder (alaCroft) and climb that shit!

aw sugar. ran outta ritalin?

bolting is expensive. buy some RP's instead of bolts and buy some insurance instead of a drill and go climb D.D.D.

why climb it? i dont understand this. mabe it is a different perspective on what it means to climb, but if i have to bolt the fuck outta a rock so i feel i can ascend, what have i accomplished? see my auto sig for details. as for the action... i was not talking about climbing there cheif.

i'm not doing that either. and i dont give a shit how hard you climb. my opinion is just as valid. it is a shared resource and the altercations of a few affet many. every user that is affected must have a say. everyone who is saying "so-and-so sid this is bla bla bla" are way off base. we matter. our opinions matter. i wont tell you where to climb, but i will express my opinion when i think your actions have a derogatory affect on other's experiences in the outdoors. i am not a bolt yanker and i am not a bolt placer. i think both should think carefully about the affect their actions will have on other users. the thing is, it is not possible to see bolting as restorative but it is with yanking. i dont know why you are getting so angry by my posts rudy, but mabe you need to read more carefully. i never called anyone lazy, i never told you where to climb and i think you are using the ol' cc.com strategery to discredi me by placing words in my mouth.

didn't say they were

haha sucka!

bu there is also no law against yanking bolts. so are the bolters not just as much of outlaws as the anti-bolters? so what makes the bolters in the right and the anti-bolters the wrong? public opinion? the opinions of those pulling down 5.15's?